While I appreciate the intent behind this post, something about it rubs me the wrong way. It's almost like telling women how to train a dog and get what you want out of this loyal dog. Like, "Here Fido, you want the stick? go get the stick! You got the stick? Oh good boy!". Men aren't a plug and play thing that just "love a quest". We love the women in our lives and want to see them happy and it would be nice if our women loved us in return. No games. No "questing". No sending us on errands because it makes you happy. Just love. Simply wanting the best for the other person. Does it have to be so hard and gamified? Why does that have to be a quest? Shouldn't the woman be happy to do what makes her husband happy as well? Is it a "quest" when she says she wants to treat him well or do something special for him simply because she wants him happy?
Maybe I misunderstood the intent of the post and if I did that's on me. But like I said... It just rubbed me the wrong way and I have a feeling I'm not alone.
This will be great to remember the next time my wife and I are trying to pick a spot for lunch. I guess it pleases her to have me list all the proximal restaurants until I say the one she wants, then "it was my idea" and she's not being selfish or controlling by always picking the lunch spot. However, her neural wiring blocks out the concepts that a) I literally don't give a shit where we eat and b) I want her to be happy and pick the meal she is craving, because I would eat roadkill if it made her happy. And for her honor I will qualify that she is amazing, we have all the normal male-female conundrums that make you laugh out loud when you're not knee-deep in them.
The other reason “quest-gratitude” approach is a good one for women to adopt is that it provides a valuable replacement for the “if you really loved me you’d be able to read my mind” approach.
Many times women will say they don’t want the favor, because they perceive having to ask for it as being not loved. I think this actually comes from good/decent mothering: knowing your baby is hungry/wet/tired before they tell you/cry.
But they actually do want the favor- they just want the man to love them like their mother does and anticipate their needs without having to ask. If you have to ask, you’ve been neglected.
The quest/appreciation model can teach women that they can’t relate to men as if they are mothers. And that him not being a mind reader doesn’t mean your are unloved.
"Women, being accountants who keep close and careful track of who did what for whom, are therefore naturally loath to ask for favors, to deprecate the value of gifts and favors given to them, and to seek to avoid any future obligations to others."
This was extremely helpful and clarifying. I had observed a lot of women do this sort of accounting of favors done for each other even amongst their friends. At first, I didn't really know why. I have observed women to even keep track of the specific value of each gift and favor and carefully measure the level of gratitude or reciprocation they should return, if they even feel they should return it. One time, the tracking of these obligations was so specific that it was down to counting the amount of fruit gifted to each other. Now, I understand.
I see men, including myself, as being *very* transactional in intersexual relationships. I think about the husband that was blindsided by his wife suddenly divorcing him--in his mind he has a long list of things he has done that is like a massive equity account hanging over the relationship (I sacrificed for years doing x, y, z).
I see Sex as the currency of exchange in a marriage. I work hard and do this and that and your list on the weekend, I want sex. Many marriages become sexless or near-to-sexless and this is a huge resentment hanging over the man's perspective in the relationship
As a tangent, I would wager that men with "honey-do" lists struggle with sexlessness more than men who do not. For multiple reasons:
1. Puts the wife in the position of authority in the relationship
2. It is rooted in the idea of the husband being in infinite debt to his wife, thus giving her claim over anytime that her husband isn't working at his job
3. In the wife's mind, these aren't things that "she wants" but rather things that "need to get done" and so allows her to rationalize away the need to be grateful
4. Completed tasks count for nothing, but every incomplete task is a failure.
You don't understand what "transactional" means in this context. What you're describing is more akin to the one guy who never returns favors, but only takes them. Men are not selfless one-way givers, for the most part, they just don't keep track of every little thing every single time.
But when all the giving is one way, men eventually notice this and cut out the member of the group who doesn't contribute.
You might think you are transactional, but the reality is that you couldn't put a price on any single sexual act that you want.
Woman story: a lady in our friend group hated splitting the bill evenly because she felt like she always paid too much. One time she threw a fit and made the waiter take hers off so she could pay for it separately. The rest of us split ours evenly. She ended up paying several dollars more than the rest of us. She did her best to pretend that she wasn't hopping mad.
Man story: My husband wanted to do a flat cattle panel for the pole beans to climb on. I insisted on an archway bean trellis. He said I was on my own, but the next day he happily went out and installed two bean arches. If a chore and a quest are the same amount of work, why not take up the quest? We were both pleased.
More importantly, why do you need to understand what his preferences are? Why can't you simply accept them and abide by them?
Seriously, what business is it of yours to police his preferences and reasoning? You may not understand that's what you're doing, but it is. But you do get credit for not arguing with him over what he prefers.
There isn't a man on the planet who enjoys that rabbit hole.
It's my entire blindness that made me laugh so hard at seeing reality in his response. How could I be so blind? It must be remarkably frustrating. Thank you. That's why I read here. You are not afraid to say just what you see.
That's usually how it is for me. My wife knows what I like to do, and also knows what I dislike. So "would you like to..." or "do you want to..." never comes into it when it comes to chores and quests.
We share a good sense of humour so we have a good laugh about it if I catch her making an unreasonable request or being bossy.
Something I noticed is that she really loves it as much as I do when I show sincere appreciation for any chore she has done, especially if it is a chore we both dislike.
We have a relative who uses this phrase. I had to teach my kids that she wasn't actually asking, she was giving an instruction, and the correct response is to just do it without responding as if it were an actual question.
When I figured out that “do you want” generally means “I want” when dealing with my wife and (especially) her mom and sisters, my life got a lot simpler. They are hoping I will say yes, so they get what they want without having to ask directly. With the benefit of being able to pretend I’m getting what I want so they aren’t obligated.
Would be simpler still if she’d realize that when it comes to what we are going to eat, where we are going to go on Saturday afternoon and things like that, 90% of the time (or more) I really don’t care. She could just tell me what she wants and I’d usually do it just because I want her to be happy. But as long as I understand the above it works almost as well.
It's not often that people have the courage, the kindness or the care to remove the scales from your eyes and let the light in. What else is there to say but I hear you now and thank you.
"the average married man is forgetting is that it is impossible for him to do a favor for the average wife because he owes her in an imaginary, but infinite account of implicit obligations to her that will always find him in debt"
A lot of truth to this. "But you promised FOREVER"
It sounds depressing, but it is actually a very liberating realization, and can lead to a happier marriage for both.
Once you realize it is impossible to satisfy her demands, you can stop fretting about it.
Instead, show her through your actions that your time and attention are valuable. Make your own priorities and execute on them. If you have good priorities and your wife is reasonable, then she will see the value in what you are doing and support you (or at least leave you alone). Sometimes women just want to see that their man is busy.
If she wants to direct your time and attention toward her own objectives, be willing to tell her no, but demonstrate that appreciation, enthusiasm, and support are the currency by which she can earn those resources.
I get the sense that this is something that women knew back in the day.
My current woman is from a more traditional culture. She does this. She's thankful for the things I offer and is direct when she wants or needs something. It's refreshing.
You bet it was! My grandmother tried to pass this down to us. I didn't understand it or practice it until after rejecting feminism. This blog is so good at sharing wisdom we should have already known.
He hopes that the other guy would do the same. Morally good men always hope that other men are reliable and moral. A man whose word is worth something doesn't want to see that you have a useless and unreliable bullshitter next door. Hope is a difficult thing to keep alive, and you want that rewarded by your fellow.
That's a rookie mistake. Trust comes over time of reciprocating favors. It's not hard to notice if someone only takes and never gives, or where their limits are.
Discovering someone isn't worthy of more trust is cheap at the cost of a free favor.
I remember that being pretty good, but dont remember that scene.
I learned that $20 lesson on my own. Initially it was to send an annoying guy away quickly, then over time I noticed he left the room anytime we were in the same place. Winning.
This is very much like the advice on receiving compliments that you gave to low status men in a recent post. Ladies, he's offering you a gift. Bat your eyes, smile, say thank you and if you can, do something nice to show your appreciation.
Honestly, I didn't realize other girls didn't know this. I'm petite and childlike, and have an air of helplessness that has had men and boys carrying my parcels, opening doors, setting up my tables at Farmer's Markets and whatnot all my life. I treat it like the gift it is, smile and thank them.
Much of social etiquette is common sense, but MPAI and we're that self-centered. The average man and woman need to be trained to do things now and figure out the wisdom of it when they're much older.
Bat your eyes reminded me of this bit of wisdom from 10yrs ago:
"Be Submissive, Not Challenging. The one vital thing women most often fail to understand about men is that men are made for conflict. When we are challenged, we instinctively want to vanquish and crush the opponent, no matter who it is. But bat your eyelashes and ask for something sweetly, and it makes us want to launch a thousand ships on your behalf."
When you shift all the subjects up a level on the hierarchy, to men and God, the comment and reply reads like the testimony of a saint. Any hot criticism I had for women struggling to submit got drenched when I realized I don't live up to my own standards in regards to my own Lord.
"Honestly, I didn't realize other men didn't know this. I'm meek and humble, and have an air of hope that has had angels and principalities carrying my parcels, opening doors, setting up my tables at Farmer's Markets and whatnot all my life. I treat it like the gift it is, smile and thank them."
"Be Submissive, Not Challenging. The one vital thing men most often fail to understand about God is that God is made for conflict. When God is challenged, He instinctively wants to vanquish and crush the opponent, no matter who it is. But bow your head and pray for something sweetly, and it makes God want to launch a thousand ships on your behalf."
When my boys find a stick thar vaguely resembles a rifle, the clouds part, the angels descend, and Dieudonne Sauve appears from heaven to say yes my son it is a fine stick.
That's one of my favorite memes. A man finds a stick that looks JUST like a longsword, and every commenter instantly celebrates the glory of the stick.
We're much simpler creatures than we choose to believe.
Yes, but it's also uncorrupted chivalry and courtly, gentlemanly behaviour. A lady needs help and a man is helping, with no ulterior motive other than to make her life easier.
This is in contradistinction to the Gamma pseudo-chivalry as a way to garner sexual interest. Funny, the Gamma approach has the same transactional nature that Vox describes among women. Yet another item on the Gamma Effeminate Behaviour scorecard.
While I appreciate the intent behind this post, something about it rubs me the wrong way. It's almost like telling women how to train a dog and get what you want out of this loyal dog. Like, "Here Fido, you want the stick? go get the stick! You got the stick? Oh good boy!". Men aren't a plug and play thing that just "love a quest". We love the women in our lives and want to see them happy and it would be nice if our women loved us in return. No games. No "questing". No sending us on errands because it makes you happy. Just love. Simply wanting the best for the other person. Does it have to be so hard and gamified? Why does that have to be a quest? Shouldn't the woman be happy to do what makes her husband happy as well? Is it a "quest" when she says she wants to treat him well or do something special for him simply because she wants him happy?
Maybe I misunderstood the intent of the post and if I did that's on me. But like I said... It just rubbed me the wrong way and I have a feeling I'm not alone.
This will be great to remember the next time my wife and I are trying to pick a spot for lunch. I guess it pleases her to have me list all the proximal restaurants until I say the one she wants, then "it was my idea" and she's not being selfish or controlling by always picking the lunch spot. However, her neural wiring blocks out the concepts that a) I literally don't give a shit where we eat and b) I want her to be happy and pick the meal she is craving, because I would eat roadkill if it made her happy. And for her honor I will qualify that she is amazing, we have all the normal male-female conundrums that make you laugh out loud when you're not knee-deep in them.
The other reason “quest-gratitude” approach is a good one for women to adopt is that it provides a valuable replacement for the “if you really loved me you’d be able to read my mind” approach.
Many times women will say they don’t want the favor, because they perceive having to ask for it as being not loved. I think this actually comes from good/decent mothering: knowing your baby is hungry/wet/tired before they tell you/cry.
But they actually do want the favor- they just want the man to love them like their mother does and anticipate their needs without having to ask. If you have to ask, you’ve been neglected.
The quest/appreciation model can teach women that they can’t relate to men as if they are mothers. And that him not being a mind reader doesn’t mean your are unloved.
Queue Owen Benjamin's "How To Be Married And Not Get Murdered" bit.
I've been that waiter.
"Women, being accountants who keep close and careful track of who did what for whom, are therefore naturally loath to ask for favors, to deprecate the value of gifts and favors given to them, and to seek to avoid any future obligations to others."
This was extremely helpful and clarifying. I had observed a lot of women do this sort of accounting of favors done for each other even amongst their friends. At first, I didn't really know why. I have observed women to even keep track of the specific value of each gift and favor and carefully measure the level of gratitude or reciprocation they should return, if they even feel they should return it. One time, the tracking of these obligations was so specific that it was down to counting the amount of fruit gifted to each other. Now, I understand.
I see men, including myself, as being *very* transactional in intersexual relationships. I think about the husband that was blindsided by his wife suddenly divorcing him--in his mind he has a long list of things he has done that is like a massive equity account hanging over the relationship (I sacrificed for years doing x, y, z).
I see Sex as the currency of exchange in a marriage. I work hard and do this and that and your list on the weekend, I want sex. Many marriages become sexless or near-to-sexless and this is a huge resentment hanging over the man's perspective in the relationship
As a tangent, I would wager that men with "honey-do" lists struggle with sexlessness more than men who do not. For multiple reasons:
1. Puts the wife in the position of authority in the relationship
2. It is rooted in the idea of the husband being in infinite debt to his wife, thus giving her claim over anytime that her husband isn't working at his job
3. In the wife's mind, these aren't things that "she wants" but rather things that "need to get done" and so allows her to rationalize away the need to be grateful
4. Completed tasks count for nothing, but every incomplete task is a failure.
Telling a woman she owes you sex is the fastest way of making her bone-dry.
If you see Sex as transactional, this is all you're gonna get. Duty-sex is the fast road to no sex at all.
You don't understand what "transactional" means in this context. What you're describing is more akin to the one guy who never returns favors, but only takes them. Men are not selfless one-way givers, for the most part, they just don't keep track of every little thing every single time.
But when all the giving is one way, men eventually notice this and cut out the member of the group who doesn't contribute.
You might think you are transactional, but the reality is that you couldn't put a price on any single sexual act that you want.
Accurate!
Woman story: a lady in our friend group hated splitting the bill evenly because she felt like she always paid too much. One time she threw a fit and made the waiter take hers off so she could pay for it separately. The rest of us split ours evenly. She ended up paying several dollars more than the rest of us. She did her best to pretend that she wasn't hopping mad.
Man story: My husband wanted to do a flat cattle panel for the pole beans to climb on. I insisted on an archway bean trellis. He said I was on my own, but the next day he happily went out and installed two bean arches. If a chore and a quest are the same amount of work, why not take up the quest? We were both pleased.
Me while reading this thread: "Honey is there anything I can do to improve how I ask for things?"
Husband: "Remove the preface, 'Do you mind...'
Me: "But what if you do mind?"
Husband: "It doesn't matter, if it is something that needs to be done and you can't do then I have to do it"
Me: "I never thought of it that way"
More importantly, why do you need to understand what his preferences are? Why can't you simply accept them and abide by them?
Seriously, what business is it of yours to police his preferences and reasoning? You may not understand that's what you're doing, but it is. But you do get credit for not arguing with him over what he prefers.
There isn't a man on the planet who enjoys that rabbit hole.
It's my entire blindness that made me laugh so hard at seeing reality in his response. How could I be so blind? It must be remarkably frustrating. Thank you. That's why I read here. You are not afraid to say just what you see.
"Do you want to-"
"No, I don't. Tell me what it is, and I'll do it."
My wife has never quite gotten this. I do because it is in my nature to do, not because I have any particular desire.
"Can you do this for me, please?"
"Yes, I can. I'll go and do it".
"Thanks"
That's usually how it is for me. My wife knows what I like to do, and also knows what I dislike. So "would you like to..." or "do you want to..." never comes into it when it comes to chores and quests.
We share a good sense of humour so we have a good laugh about it if I catch her making an unreasonable request or being bossy.
Something I noticed is that she really loves it as much as I do when I show sincere appreciation for any chore she has done, especially if it is a chore we both dislike.
We have a relative who uses this phrase. I had to teach my kids that she wasn't actually asking, she was giving an instruction, and the correct response is to just do it without responding as if it were an actual question.
When I figured out that “do you want” generally means “I want” when dealing with my wife and (especially) her mom and sisters, my life got a lot simpler. They are hoping I will say yes, so they get what they want without having to ask directly. With the benefit of being able to pretend I’m getting what I want so they aren’t obligated.
Would be simpler still if she’d realize that when it comes to what we are going to eat, where we are going to go on Saturday afternoon and things like that, 90% of the time (or more) I really don’t care. She could just tell me what she wants and I’d usually do it just because I want her to be happy. But as long as I understand the above it works almost as well.
It's not often that people have the courage, the kindness or the care to remove the scales from your eyes and let the light in. What else is there to say but I hear you now and thank you.
This reminds me of a youtube short.
https://youtube.com/shorts/Ol0kUTrhOtk?si=K7ydkkzYmEOSW3sx
put down any beverage before watching.
"the average married man is forgetting is that it is impossible for him to do a favor for the average wife because he owes her in an imaginary, but infinite account of implicit obligations to her that will always find him in debt"
A lot of truth to this. "But you promised FOREVER"
It sounds depressing, but it is actually a very liberating realization, and can lead to a happier marriage for both.
Once you realize it is impossible to satisfy her demands, you can stop fretting about it.
Instead, show her through your actions that your time and attention are valuable. Make your own priorities and execute on them. If you have good priorities and your wife is reasonable, then she will see the value in what you are doing and support you (or at least leave you alone). Sometimes women just want to see that their man is busy.
If she wants to direct your time and attention toward her own objectives, be willing to tell her no, but demonstrate that appreciation, enthusiasm, and support are the currency by which she can earn those resources.
Any sentence that starts with "But you" needs a hard shutdown.
I get the sense that this is something that women knew back in the day.
My current woman is from a more traditional culture. She does this. She's thankful for the things I offer and is direct when she wants or needs something. It's refreshing.
You bet it was! My grandmother tried to pass this down to us. I didn't understand it or practice it until after rejecting feminism. This blog is so good at sharing wisdom we should have already known.
"There, but for the grace of God, go I," versus, "Not me!"
Imagine playing an open world game, and the questline objectives were female-coded.
"Retrieve the Dragon Stone and bring it to Farengar. Or don't, it's ok either way. I don't know, what do you think?"
Replayability would nosedive.
"Farengar mentioned that the Dragon Stone sounded nice."
Men usually grant favors without expecting anything in return immediately. The mere expectation of future reciprocity suffices.
"I reckon you would do the same for me"
He hopes that the other guy would do the same. Morally good men always hope that other men are reliable and moral. A man whose word is worth something doesn't want to see that you have a useless and unreliable bullshitter next door. Hope is a difficult thing to keep alive, and you want that rewarded by your fellow.
And that assumption is often mistaken.
That's a rookie mistake. Trust comes over time of reciprocating favors. It's not hard to notice if someone only takes and never gives, or where their limits are.
Discovering someone isn't worthy of more trust is cheap at the cost of a free favor.
Hard agree. Loaning someone $20 and never seeing them again is the cheapest reveal possible.
Finding good people requires getting sludged by less-good people, but absolutely worth it to filter out quality relations.
I remember that being pretty good, but dont remember that scene.
I learned that $20 lesson on my own. Initially it was to send an annoying guy away quickly, then over time I noticed he left the room anytime we were in the same place. Winning.
Owen Benjamin did a great bit on this exact topic several years ago. https://youtu.be/WON0A2GB7UI
Still the best stand-up bit of all time.
"It's like, if you're nice to them... they bring you things?"
When the chief rad-fem has an epiphany at the end of PCU.
This is very much like the advice on receiving compliments that you gave to low status men in a recent post. Ladies, he's offering you a gift. Bat your eyes, smile, say thank you and if you can, do something nice to show your appreciation.
Honestly, I didn't realize other girls didn't know this. I'm petite and childlike, and have an air of helplessness that has had men and boys carrying my parcels, opening doors, setting up my tables at Farmer's Markets and whatnot all my life. I treat it like the gift it is, smile and thank them.
Much of social etiquette is common sense, but MPAI and we're that self-centered. The average man and woman need to be trained to do things now and figure out the wisdom of it when they're much older.
Bat your eyes reminded me of this bit of wisdom from 10yrs ago:
"Be Submissive, Not Challenging. The one vital thing women most often fail to understand about men is that men are made for conflict. When we are challenged, we instinctively want to vanquish and crush the opponent, no matter who it is. But bat your eyelashes and ask for something sweetly, and it makes us want to launch a thousand ships on your behalf."
When you shift all the subjects up a level on the hierarchy, to men and God, the comment and reply reads like the testimony of a saint. Any hot criticism I had for women struggling to submit got drenched when I realized I don't live up to my own standards in regards to my own Lord.
"Honestly, I didn't realize other men didn't know this. I'm meek and humble, and have an air of hope that has had angels and principalities carrying my parcels, opening doors, setting up my tables at Farmer's Markets and whatnot all my life. I treat it like the gift it is, smile and thank them."
"Be Submissive, Not Challenging. The one vital thing men most often fail to understand about God is that God is made for conflict. When God is challenged, He instinctively wants to vanquish and crush the opponent, no matter who it is. But bow your head and pray for something sweetly, and it makes God want to launch a thousand ships on your behalf."
Understanding that aspect finally made sense of how we men can be the Bride of Christ.
Becoming a husband caused me to appreciate The Bridegroom, and being a father is revealing the greatness of Our Father.
Makes me feel chief of sinners more often than not.
It's like a child giving you a smooth rock or a weird stick. They are giving you something they think is nice.
Who doesn't appreciate a Good stick?
When my boys find a stick thar vaguely resembles a rifle, the clouds part, the angels descend, and Dieudonne Sauve appears from heaven to say yes my son it is a fine stick.
That's one of my favorite memes. A man finds a stick that looks JUST like a longsword, and every commenter instantly celebrates the glory of the stick.
We're much simpler creatures than we choose to believe.
Longswords are just cooler than popularly accepted.
Yes, but it's also uncorrupted chivalry and courtly, gentlemanly behaviour. A lady needs help and a man is helping, with no ulterior motive other than to make her life easier.
This is in contradistinction to the Gamma pseudo-chivalry as a way to garner sexual interest. Funny, the Gamma approach has the same transactional nature that Vox describes among women. Yet another item on the Gamma Effeminate Behaviour scorecard.
Well put.
Thank you.
You word all of this far better than I can this morning.
Rather than chivalry, I think we are approaching the idea of Charity, the self-disinterested love that gives patiently and generously.