The other reason “quest-gratitude” approach is a good one for women to adopt is that it provides a valuable replacement for the “if you really loved me you’d be able to read my mind” approach.
Many times women will say they don’t want the favor, because they perceive having to ask for it as being not loved. I think this actually comes from good/decent mothering: knowing your baby is hungry/wet/tired before they tell you/cry.
But they actually do want the favor- they just want the man to love them like their mother does and anticipate their needs without having to ask. If you have to ask, you’ve been neglected.
The quest/appreciation model can teach women that they can’t relate to men as if they are mothers. And that him not being a mind reader doesn’t mean your are unloved.
This is my fault for arguing with retards on Twitter, but I pointed out that one of the annoying traits of the protagonists on The Big Bang Theory is that they all make a show of handing over money to each other whenever they get takeout. I pointed out that instead of passing the same $8 to each other every day, it would be more efficient to just have a different one pay every day and it would all even out in the end. They are all STEM guys and Sheldon should have been the one to figure it out to begin with.
I once annoyed one of my colleagues who was a female biology teacher. One day she made a run to Dunkin and asked if I wanted anything, so I told her my wish for a large iced coffee. She didn't say anything, but to her I violated protocol because I didn't offer her the $2.50 for the drink. My thought process is that I would eventually go on my own run to Dunkin, ask her if she wanted anything, and we would be even at that point. The irony is that she was a highly educated "doctor" who made six figures, but her inner female could not be denied
"Women, being accountants who keep close and careful track of who did what for whom, are therefore naturally loath to ask for favors, to deprecate the value of gifts and favors given to them, and to seek to avoid any future obligations to others."
This was extremely helpful and clarifying. I had observed a lot of women do this sort of accounting of favors done for each other even amongst their friends. At first, I didn't really know why. I have observed women to even keep track of the specific value of each gift and favor and carefully measure the level of gratitude or reciprocation they should return, if they even feel they should return it. One time, the tracking of these obligations was so specific that it was down to counting the amount of fruit gifted to each other. Now, I understand.
I see men, including myself, as being *very* transactional in intersexual relationships. I think about the husband that was blindsided by his wife suddenly divorcing him--in his mind he has a long list of things he has done that is like a massive equity account hanging over the relationship (I sacrificed for years doing x, y, z).
I see Sex as the currency of exchange in a marriage. I work hard and do this and that and your list on the weekend, I want sex. Many marriages become sexless or near-to-sexless and this is a huge resentment hanging over the man's perspective in the relationship
As a tangent, I would wager that men with "honey-do" lists struggle with sexlessness more than men who do not. For multiple reasons:
1. Puts the wife in the position of authority in the relationship
2. It is rooted in the idea of the husband being in infinite debt to his wife, thus giving her claim over anytime that her husband isn't working at his job
3. In the wife's mind, these aren't things that "she wants" but rather things that "need to get done" and so allows her to rationalize away the need to be grateful
4. Completed tasks count for nothing, but every incomplete task is a failure.
You don't understand what "transactional" means in this context. What you're describing is more akin to the one guy who never returns favors, but only takes them. Men are not selfless one-way givers, for the most part, they just don't keep track of every little thing every single time.
But when all the giving is one way, men eventually notice this and cut out the member of the group who doesn't contribute.
You might think you are transactional, but the reality is that you couldn't put a price on any single sexual act that you want.
Woman story: a lady in our friend group hated splitting the bill evenly because she felt like she always paid too much. One time she threw a fit and made the waiter take hers off so she could pay for it separately. The rest of us split ours evenly. She ended up paying several dollars more than the rest of us. She did her best to pretend that she wasn't hopping mad.
Man story: My husband wanted to do a flat cattle panel for the pole beans to climb on. I insisted on an archway bean trellis. He said I was on my own, but the next day he happily went out and installed two bean arches. If a chore and a quest are the same amount of work, why not take up the quest? We were both pleased.
More importantly, why do you need to understand what his preferences are? Why can't you simply accept them and abide by them?
Seriously, what business is it of yours to police his preferences and reasoning? You may not understand that's what you're doing, but it is. But you do get credit for not arguing with him over what he prefers.
There isn't a man on the planet who enjoys that rabbit hole.
It's my entire blindness that made me laugh so hard at seeing reality in his response. How could I be so blind? It must be remarkably frustrating. Thank you. That's why I read here. You are not afraid to say just what you see.
That's usually how it is for me. My wife knows what I like to do, and also knows what I dislike. So "would you like to..." or "do you want to..." never comes into it when it comes to chores and quests.
We share a good sense of humour so we have a good laugh about it if I catch her making an unreasonable request or being bossy.
Something I noticed is that she really loves it as much as I do when I show sincere appreciation for any chore she has done, especially if it is a chore we both dislike.
We have a relative who uses this phrase. I had to teach my kids that she wasn't actually asking, she was giving an instruction, and the correct response is to just do it without responding as if it were an actual question.
When I figured out that “do you want” generally means “I want” when dealing with my wife and (especially) her mom and sisters, my life got a lot simpler. They are hoping I will say yes, so they get what they want without having to ask directly. With the benefit of being able to pretend I’m getting what I want so they aren’t obligated.
Would be simpler still if she’d realize that when it comes to what we are going to eat, where we are going to go on Saturday afternoon and things like that, 90% of the time (or more) I really don’t care. She could just tell me what she wants and I’d usually do it just because I want her to be happy. But as long as I understand the above it works almost as well.
It's not often that people have the courage, the kindness or the care to remove the scales from your eyes and let the light in. What else is there to say but I hear you now and thank you.
"the average married man is forgetting is that it is impossible for him to do a favor for the average wife because he owes her in an imaginary, but infinite account of implicit obligations to her that will always find him in debt"
A lot of truth to this. "But you promised FOREVER"
It sounds depressing, but it is actually a very liberating realization, and can lead to a happier marriage for both.
Once you realize it is impossible to satisfy her demands, you can stop fretting about it.
Instead, show her through your actions that your time and attention are valuable. Make your own priorities and execute on them. If you have good priorities and your wife is reasonable, then she will see the value in what you are doing and support you (or at least leave you alone). Sometimes women just want to see that their man is busy.
If she wants to direct your time and attention toward her own objectives, be willing to tell her no, but demonstrate that appreciation, enthusiasm, and support are the currency by which she can earn those resources.
I get the sense that this is something that women knew back in the day.
My current woman is from a more traditional culture. She does this. She's thankful for the things I offer and is direct when she wants or needs something. It's refreshing.
You bet it was! My grandmother tried to pass this down to us. I didn't understand it or practice it until after rejecting feminism. This blog is so good at sharing wisdom we should have already known.
He hopes that the other guy would do the same. Morally good men always hope that other men are reliable and moral. A man whose word is worth something doesn't want to see that you have a useless and unreliable bullshitter next door. Hope is a difficult thing to keep alive, and you want that rewarded by your fellow.
That's a rookie mistake. Trust comes over time of reciprocating favors. It's not hard to notice if someone only takes and never gives, or where their limits are.
Discovering someone isn't worthy of more trust is cheap at the cost of a free favor.
I remember that being pretty good, but dont remember that scene.
I learned that $20 lesson on my own. Initially it was to send an annoying guy away quickly, then over time I noticed he left the room anytime we were in the same place. Winning.
The other reason “quest-gratitude” approach is a good one for women to adopt is that it provides a valuable replacement for the “if you really loved me you’d be able to read my mind” approach.
Many times women will say they don’t want the favor, because they perceive having to ask for it as being not loved. I think this actually comes from good/decent mothering: knowing your baby is hungry/wet/tired before they tell you/cry.
But they actually do want the favor- they just want the man to love them like their mother does and anticipate their needs without having to ask. If you have to ask, you’ve been neglected.
The quest/appreciation model can teach women that they can’t relate to men as if they are mothers. And that him not being a mind reader doesn’t mean your are unloved.
This is my fault for arguing with retards on Twitter, but I pointed out that one of the annoying traits of the protagonists on The Big Bang Theory is that they all make a show of handing over money to each other whenever they get takeout. I pointed out that instead of passing the same $8 to each other every day, it would be more efficient to just have a different one pay every day and it would all even out in the end. They are all STEM guys and Sheldon should have been the one to figure it out to begin with.
I once annoyed one of my colleagues who was a female biology teacher. One day she made a run to Dunkin and asked if I wanted anything, so I told her my wish for a large iced coffee. She didn't say anything, but to her I violated protocol because I didn't offer her the $2.50 for the drink. My thought process is that I would eventually go on my own run to Dunkin, ask her if she wanted anything, and we would be even at that point. The irony is that she was a highly educated "doctor" who made six figures, but her inner female could not be denied
One of them is Indian, right? That breaks the high trust society nature of the group and is why they're doing that.
I think they just did it that way for comedic purposes; the Indian character received parental support so he wasn't the poor man of the group
Not necessary for him to be poor. Its just foreign to his culture.
Queue Owen Benjamin's "How To Be Married And Not Get Murdered" bit.
I've been that waiter.
Simply asking. It's like a superpower or sumthin'.
"Women, being accountants who keep close and careful track of who did what for whom, are therefore naturally loath to ask for favors, to deprecate the value of gifts and favors given to them, and to seek to avoid any future obligations to others."
This was extremely helpful and clarifying. I had observed a lot of women do this sort of accounting of favors done for each other even amongst their friends. At first, I didn't really know why. I have observed women to even keep track of the specific value of each gift and favor and carefully measure the level of gratitude or reciprocation they should return, if they even feel they should return it. One time, the tracking of these obligations was so specific that it was down to counting the amount of fruit gifted to each other. Now, I understand.
I see men, including myself, as being *very* transactional in intersexual relationships. I think about the husband that was blindsided by his wife suddenly divorcing him--in his mind he has a long list of things he has done that is like a massive equity account hanging over the relationship (I sacrificed for years doing x, y, z).
I see Sex as the currency of exchange in a marriage. I work hard and do this and that and your list on the weekend, I want sex. Many marriages become sexless or near-to-sexless and this is a huge resentment hanging over the man's perspective in the relationship
As a tangent, I would wager that men with "honey-do" lists struggle with sexlessness more than men who do not. For multiple reasons:
1. Puts the wife in the position of authority in the relationship
2. It is rooted in the idea of the husband being in infinite debt to his wife, thus giving her claim over anytime that her husband isn't working at his job
3. In the wife's mind, these aren't things that "she wants" but rather things that "need to get done" and so allows her to rationalize away the need to be grateful
4. Completed tasks count for nothing, but every incomplete task is a failure.
Telling a woman she owes you sex is the fastest way of making her bone-dry.
If you see Sex as transactional, this is all you're gonna get. Duty-sex is the fast road to no sex at all.
You don't understand what "transactional" means in this context. What you're describing is more akin to the one guy who never returns favors, but only takes them. Men are not selfless one-way givers, for the most part, they just don't keep track of every little thing every single time.
But when all the giving is one way, men eventually notice this and cut out the member of the group who doesn't contribute.
You might think you are transactional, but the reality is that you couldn't put a price on any single sexual act that you want.
Accurate!
Woman story: a lady in our friend group hated splitting the bill evenly because she felt like she always paid too much. One time she threw a fit and made the waiter take hers off so she could pay for it separately. The rest of us split ours evenly. She ended up paying several dollars more than the rest of us. She did her best to pretend that she wasn't hopping mad.
Man story: My husband wanted to do a flat cattle panel for the pole beans to climb on. I insisted on an archway bean trellis. He said I was on my own, but the next day he happily went out and installed two bean arches. If a chore and a quest are the same amount of work, why not take up the quest? We were both pleased.
"She did her best to pretend that she wasn't hopping mad."
"No, it's FINE." Every man knows this response all too well.
For those who are familiar with the Wifejak meme on Twitter, I can very easily see her saying this
Me while reading this thread: "Honey is there anything I can do to improve how I ask for things?"
Husband: "Remove the preface, 'Do you mind...'
Me: "But what if you do mind?"
Husband: "It doesn't matter, if it is something that needs to be done and you can't do then I have to do it"
Me: "I never thought of it that way"
More importantly, why do you need to understand what his preferences are? Why can't you simply accept them and abide by them?
Seriously, what business is it of yours to police his preferences and reasoning? You may not understand that's what you're doing, but it is. But you do get credit for not arguing with him over what he prefers.
There isn't a man on the planet who enjoys that rabbit hole.
It's my entire blindness that made me laugh so hard at seeing reality in his response. How could I be so blind? It must be remarkably frustrating. Thank you. That's why I read here. You are not afraid to say just what you see.
"Do you want to-"
"No, I don't. Tell me what it is, and I'll do it."
My wife has never quite gotten this. I do because it is in my nature to do, not because I have any particular desire.
"Can you do this for me, please?"
"Yes, I can. I'll go and do it".
"Thanks"
That's usually how it is for me. My wife knows what I like to do, and also knows what I dislike. So "would you like to..." or "do you want to..." never comes into it when it comes to chores and quests.
We share a good sense of humour so we have a good laugh about it if I catch her making an unreasonable request or being bossy.
Something I noticed is that she really loves it as much as I do when I show sincere appreciation for any chore she has done, especially if it is a chore we both dislike.
We have a relative who uses this phrase. I had to teach my kids that she wasn't actually asking, she was giving an instruction, and the correct response is to just do it without responding as if it were an actual question.
When I figured out that “do you want” generally means “I want” when dealing with my wife and (especially) her mom and sisters, my life got a lot simpler. They are hoping I will say yes, so they get what they want without having to ask directly. With the benefit of being able to pretend I’m getting what I want so they aren’t obligated.
Would be simpler still if she’d realize that when it comes to what we are going to eat, where we are going to go on Saturday afternoon and things like that, 90% of the time (or more) I really don’t care. She could just tell me what she wants and I’d usually do it just because I want her to be happy. But as long as I understand the above it works almost as well.
It's not often that people have the courage, the kindness or the care to remove the scales from your eyes and let the light in. What else is there to say but I hear you now and thank you.
This reminds me of a youtube short.
https://youtube.com/shorts/Ol0kUTrhOtk?si=K7ydkkzYmEOSW3sx
put down any beverage before watching.
"the average married man is forgetting is that it is impossible for him to do a favor for the average wife because he owes her in an imaginary, but infinite account of implicit obligations to her that will always find him in debt"
A lot of truth to this. "But you promised FOREVER"
It sounds depressing, but it is actually a very liberating realization, and can lead to a happier marriage for both.
Once you realize it is impossible to satisfy her demands, you can stop fretting about it.
Instead, show her through your actions that your time and attention are valuable. Make your own priorities and execute on them. If you have good priorities and your wife is reasonable, then she will see the value in what you are doing and support you (or at least leave you alone). Sometimes women just want to see that their man is busy.
If she wants to direct your time and attention toward her own objectives, be willing to tell her no, but demonstrate that appreciation, enthusiasm, and support are the currency by which she can earn those resources.
Any sentence that starts with "But you" needs a hard shutdown.
Female ledger: flowers=1 point=new car
I get the sense that this is something that women knew back in the day.
My current woman is from a more traditional culture. She does this. She's thankful for the things I offer and is direct when she wants or needs something. It's refreshing.
You bet it was! My grandmother tried to pass this down to us. I didn't understand it or practice it until after rejecting feminism. This blog is so good at sharing wisdom we should have already known.
"There, but for the grace of God, go I," versus, "Not me!"
Imagine playing an open world game, and the questline objectives were female-coded.
"Retrieve the Dragon Stone and bring it to Farengar. Or don't, it's ok either way. I don't know, what do you think?"
Replayability would nosedive.
The quest item flashes on the screen for 0.2 seconds, and if you miss it, you're screwed. Best re-roll and start over, buddy!
"Farengar mentioned that the Dragon Stone sounded nice."
Men usually grant favors without expecting anything in return immediately. The mere expectation of future reciprocity suffices.
"I reckon you would do the same for me"
He hopes that the other guy would do the same. Morally good men always hope that other men are reliable and moral. A man whose word is worth something doesn't want to see that you have a useless and unreliable bullshitter next door. Hope is a difficult thing to keep alive, and you want that rewarded by your fellow.
And that assumption is often mistaken.
That's a rookie mistake. Trust comes over time of reciprocating favors. It's not hard to notice if someone only takes and never gives, or where their limits are.
Discovering someone isn't worthy of more trust is cheap at the cost of a free favor.
Hard agree. Loaning someone $20 and never seeing them again is the cheapest reveal possible.
Finding good people requires getting sludged by less-good people, but absolutely worth it to filter out quality relations.
A Bronx Tale (De Niro, 1993) is a great movie for many reasons, but this is the primary one
I remember that being pretty good, but dont remember that scene.
I learned that $20 lesson on my own. Initially it was to send an annoying guy away quickly, then over time I noticed he left the room anytime we were in the same place. Winning.
Owen Benjamin did a great bit on this exact topic several years ago. https://youtu.be/WON0A2GB7UI
Still the best stand-up bit of all time.
"It's like, if you're nice to them... they bring you things?"
When the chief rad-fem has an epiphany at the end of PCU.