Aside from the reader benefiting from simply reading the last paragraph there is also one more trait that I believe you left out that is very important for attractiveness:
— a man who creates is very attractive to women; music, carpentry, electricians, welders, painters, writers, architects, etc.
Yeah, honestly I think you're right. I'm supposedly above average intelligence (which explained a lot of the social disconnect in my life) but the biggest thing that seems to set me apart is self-reflection and the rare (in women) self-awareness that I am, in fact, crazy---simply because I'm female. I definitely couldn't marry a dumb man. We fell in love by discussing philosophy. He's since soared past me in that regard, but I'm still just smart enough not to feel totally left behind, except when the subject turns to stocks. I looked at the full package and got a not-ugly, not-short, not-stupid man with genes that match mine well enough to make good babies and a work ethic that guarantees we won't ever be homeless. I got what I wanted and am quite pleased with myself over it. That said, any nerd trading purely on intellect is NOT very attractive. I need the capacity for violence, or else what's the point?
Well that is true, but stupidity is unattractive. Most people will select their intellectual peers. At least if they are in the normal intelligence range.
Not all types of intelligence are unattractive to women. They might dislike empty words, factual and scientific knowledge, theories, and philosophy. Women like things that they can use. The types of intelligence that can produce stuff or earn money will find favor with women. Bill Gates has one problem: Bill Gates. His voice is weird, he looks nerdy, and I think he's socially clumsy. Elon Musk was like him, but he worked on himself.
You're totally wrong. All intelligence that is deemed "excessive" is unattractive by women. If you have to "work" on it and conceal it, it's obviously not intrinsically attractive.
It's ridiculous. It's just an attempt to grab attention, like all the military strategist wannabes who write about 6th Generation War and 7th Generation War. It doesn't describe anything real.
One problem that we have here is the definition of intelligent.
Nobody wants a dullard or a dolt. But most people want someone who is capable, aware, quick-witted, clever. A person who is highly capable of programming a computer but lacking in many other attributes of mind may be “highly intelligent” but also quite limited.
"Cultivate indifference" I was genuinely lucky in that I have a natural tendency to not care about anything outside my personal interests. It turns out high school girls perceived this arrogance positively.
I would also make one strong criticism of your example of Bill Gates. Many men have different ideas of beauty. Those who think the random "it girl" in popular culture might never understand this, but some men really prefer heavy women or Asian women or flat-chested girls or skinny girls. This is obvious to me because the women I find attractive, no one else seems to think so. That said, I am shocked at how many other men are incapable of understanding that their preferences are not universal, even if the average guy conforms to their view.
In general, intelligent men do just fine with women. I never hear brilliant men complaining about getting female attention. I often hear poor men, or men who imagine their value to be far higher than it actually is (incompetent "artists" everywhere) complain, but intelligent men quickly figure out where they want to live and what they want to do, and so long as you are not seriously deficient, female attention follows social status. I got married at the age of 22, and when I divorced at 32, I was shocked at how much easier it was to gain female attention. Even into my forties it was not a challenge, and I am a classic nerd through and through (gaming PC, books everywhere, bad hair cut,...).
If anything, I feel like the younger generation simply does not want female companionship. I cannot imagine any other reason to explain why younger women were so much more interested in me than women my own age. I am happily married now, and my wife is only 13 years younger than me, but I still see my friends (all nerds) doing just fine. It is not some secret. Treat women the same way you saw your father treat them, and women will like you. Then again, if your father was a jerk, well, who knows. I just cannot see the viewpoint of the author. The men I see complaining about not being able to get female attention are all far from intelligent. Very far.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information because it defies both casual observation and more formal studies. It is borderline delusional with how asynchronous it is with reality.
"In general, intelligent men do just fine with women. I never hear brilliant men complaining about getting female attention."
"Last December I passed a paper along to Razib showing that high-school age adolescents with higher IQs and extremely low IQs were less likely to have had first intercourse than those with average to below average intelligence. (i.e. for males with IQs under 70, 63.3% were still virgins, for those with IQs between 70-90 only 50.2% were virgin, 58.6% were virgins with IQs between 90-110, and 70.3% with IQs over 110 were virgins)"
"I would also make one strong criticism of your example of Bill Gates. Many men have different ideas of beauty."
No. Bill Gates wanted hot young women and had a hard time. Read the quote below and see that Bill was just like Neil Gaiman in his unrestrained, thirsty and creepy nature:
"Bill Gates was like a 'kid in a candy store' with young pretty Microsoft interns, so much so that they were banned from being alone with him, an upcoming book claims."
"I cannot imagine any other reason to explain why younger women were so much more interested in me than women my own age"
I must be delusional then. I would also state that their definition of "higher IQs" was not particularly high. They also did not bother to control for other traits, which I guess I should expect given the overall quality of analysis that is typical in studies of this kind (I have a strong suspicion that the authors of this, and plenty of other "good" studies that were peer reviewed and published could not figure out how to run a regression with more than one variable in a google sheet.
I am not discounting data, but rather the complete failure of academics in psychology and sociology to even try to understand the data sets that they are working on. That is another topic, but your study is not a great one. I would not give it dramatically more value that the smell test of any guy who got laid a lot in a large high school.
Pertaining to your last point, if Bill Gates wanted young women, why on earth would he harass interns? That makes no sense. He could order young women whenever he wanted to. Escort services have been a thing for the last few millennia. You do not marry a piece of tail, unless you are REALLY stupid. A wife is not a toy. That is silly. I will assume you must be unfamiliar with the institution of marriage. One marries the mother of his CHILDREN. Not a hot bimbo, an intelligent, strong woman who will take care of his offspring. Intelligence and inner strength do matter more than physical attractiveness in that regard. I doubt any man who is not an idiot or over the age of 22 who would marry a hot bimbo. The idea is ridiculous. Bill Gates got as many pretty women as he wanted, then he married a good woman to raise his children. FYI, powerful men do not waste time chasing young women. They have everything but time. I have worked with men no where close to Gates-level wealth, and they would never risk their company chasing interns. They order call girls like normal wealthy men. Really rich guys order a dozen, pay for all of them, then send all but one or two home. I knew a girl got into that life. It was sad, but I could understand it. She would charge guys like this $15k to $30 k to take vacations with her and pretend to be together. She would go to weddings, hang out with colleagues,..., and the men were fine. They even bought her clothing and jewelry (strange aside, I sold a few of the watches she was given). This type of arrangement is standard in every community across the US.
I feel absolutely confident in saying that you are absolutely wrong on this one. I very well may be delusional. Who am I kidding, I am delusional, but Bill Gates was never desperate after he had a few million in liquid assets. That is a world I know from an earlier life. Hang out in the lobby of any nice hotel in a large city and you will see the young girls come in. Rich men do not risk casual relationships.
"Pertaining to your last point, if Bill Gates wanted young women, why on earth would he harass interns? That makes no sense"
Because he's a wierdo. If you want more precise language he has a warped view of transactional sex, innate desirability and lack of ability to parlay his success into sexual attractiveness in line with Epstein, Weinstein and Neil Gaiman. These people demonstrably exist who have status and money beyond 99.999% of the population but are absolutely not able to bed women as well as a hunky barista on a Friday night. I post testimony that he creeps after interns and your response is that he actually doesn't because that reality doesn't match your personal beliefs. You see this right?
The very assertion that you are citing prostitution as a replacement for genuine desire from women is the tell that you don't understand their situation at all. It matters. Neil Gaiman and Bill would rather have women who are compelled to have sex with them via threats and power politics in lieu of genuine desire over getting a prostitute. We can see this, we have seen this, we are currently seeing this.
It's inane that your only defense of your points is, "Nuh uh!" You want more papers? Here's one that describes working memory as being negatively correlated to sexual debut and touches upon the negative correlation between high IQ and sexual debut: https://shorturl.at/ObVZ5
These things are all over the place in study of proxy elements, anecdotes, direct analysis and so on.
Feel free to give us your own perfect study or logical-testable-reasoning if you have an objection.
"Rich men do not risk casual relationships."
Rich gamma men risk casual relationships.
"Bill Gates’s private office reportedly asked some female job candidates about their sexual histories — including what kind of pornography they liked, whether they ever had extramarital affairs and even if they had nude pictures of themselves on their phones.
During Gates’s extensive screening process, a security firm also asked some women if they ever “danced for dollars,” sources told The Wall Street Journal.
Another candidate told the outlet that she was asked whether she had ever contracted a sexually transmitted disease.
It was unclear if any male candidates were asked similarly personal questions during the hiring process for Gates’s private office, called Gates Ventures, and none interviewed by The Journal said they had."
I live in Bradenton, FLA. A woman I knew some years ago (Bradenton’s grapevine initiated) told me that Bill Gates drew up in his yacht at the Bradenton pier with his “mistress.” I guess that is the one he read astronomy treatises with while on their one-week-a-year affair? Not sex, mutual reinforcement as “geniuses” (or as I say, genii). For SEX he prefers more nubile maidens.
"If you can use your intelligence to create social dominance, or to successfully synthesize the appearance and behavior of higher status men, that’s a much more effective approach."
Nailed it.
This is exactly what Gates did not do. One of his success traits was he was very competitive--he was so consumed with dominating and winning in the tech sector, that he never applied his aggressiveness (and he was highly aggressive) to physical or social improvement. So, when he went mate shopping--he got both exactly what he wanted (someone he judged would be a great mom) and precisely what he could attract.
A tip for all commenters, past and present, here and elsewhere:
If something you've read has raised your hackles, shut up. Look at those feelings and consider why you are so incensed, perhaps, but be silent until the haze has passed.
Then read what someone who didn't do all that wrote. Nine times out of ten, you'll realize you were about to sound foolish.
Especially if you are autistic or suffer from ADHD. I learnt rather recently that there is something called RSD - Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. All the autists and ADDers attest to the sufferings caused by this condition. This would apply to females as a group, but only that it is usually not dysphoric if you are female.
I believe competence is the word you’re looking for. Women are attracted to competence.
Aside from the reader benefiting from simply reading the last paragraph there is also one more trait that I believe you left out that is very important for attractiveness:
— a man who creates is very attractive to women; music, carpentry, electricians, welders, painters, writers, architects, etc.
Creation = production = provision
Yeah, honestly I think you're right. I'm supposedly above average intelligence (which explained a lot of the social disconnect in my life) but the biggest thing that seems to set me apart is self-reflection and the rare (in women) self-awareness that I am, in fact, crazy---simply because I'm female. I definitely couldn't marry a dumb man. We fell in love by discussing philosophy. He's since soared past me in that regard, but I'm still just smart enough not to feel totally left behind, except when the subject turns to stocks. I looked at the full package and got a not-ugly, not-short, not-stupid man with genes that match mine well enough to make good babies and a work ethic that guarantees we won't ever be homeless. I got what I wanted and am quite pleased with myself over it. That said, any nerd trading purely on intellect is NOT very attractive. I need the capacity for violence, or else what's the point?
Well that is true, but stupidity is unattractive. Most people will select their intellectual peers. At least if they are in the normal intelligence range.
For the most part. VHIQ and UHIQ aren't disattracted to stupidity, because normal people are literally retarded in comparison with them.
Not all types of intelligence are unattractive to women. They might dislike empty words, factual and scientific knowledge, theories, and philosophy. Women like things that they can use. The types of intelligence that can produce stuff or earn money will find favor with women. Bill Gates has one problem: Bill Gates. His voice is weird, he looks nerdy, and I think he's socially clumsy. Elon Musk was like him, but he worked on himself.
You're totally wrong. All intelligence that is deemed "excessive" is unattractive by women. If you have to "work" on it and conceal it, it's obviously not intrinsically attractive.
Do any of you get any actual pleasure from life? All these power games just sound exhausting and not fun.
It's fascinating to see how you think social failure is somehow equivalent to pleasure. You have to work to experience the rewards.
Vox, what do you think of the term Zeta male? I’ve heard the term discussed in forums on Reddit and videos on YouTube?
It's ridiculous. It's just an attempt to grab attention, like all the military strategist wannabes who write about 6th Generation War and 7th Generation War. It doesn't describe anything real.
Out of curiosity, which band member has the 5SD IQ?
Not Psykosonik, my previous band. We never released anything publicly.
One problem that we have here is the definition of intelligent.
Nobody wants a dullard or a dolt. But most people want someone who is capable, aware, quick-witted, clever. A person who is highly capable of programming a computer but lacking in many other attributes of mind may be “highly intelligent” but also quite limited.
Gamma confirmed.
I think you are being Captain Literal here. I think it is a given that none of us wants to date a retard, especially if we have a triple-digit IQ.
On the contrary. Intelligent women are hot. Very attractive I. Most cases
Tell me you're married to a 2 without telling me you're married to a 2.
Bill Gates is fugly as f. Being indifferent to one's own intelligence is a cool idea though.
"Cultivate indifference" I was genuinely lucky in that I have a natural tendency to not care about anything outside my personal interests. It turns out high school girls perceived this arrogance positively.
I would also make one strong criticism of your example of Bill Gates. Many men have different ideas of beauty. Those who think the random "it girl" in popular culture might never understand this, but some men really prefer heavy women or Asian women or flat-chested girls or skinny girls. This is obvious to me because the women I find attractive, no one else seems to think so. That said, I am shocked at how many other men are incapable of understanding that their preferences are not universal, even if the average guy conforms to their view.
In general, intelligent men do just fine with women. I never hear brilliant men complaining about getting female attention. I often hear poor men, or men who imagine their value to be far higher than it actually is (incompetent "artists" everywhere) complain, but intelligent men quickly figure out where they want to live and what they want to do, and so long as you are not seriously deficient, female attention follows social status. I got married at the age of 22, and when I divorced at 32, I was shocked at how much easier it was to gain female attention. Even into my forties it was not a challenge, and I am a classic nerd through and through (gaming PC, books everywhere, bad hair cut,...).
If anything, I feel like the younger generation simply does not want female companionship. I cannot imagine any other reason to explain why younger women were so much more interested in me than women my own age. I am happily married now, and my wife is only 13 years younger than me, but I still see my friends (all nerds) doing just fine. It is not some secret. Treat women the same way you saw your father treat them, and women will like you. Then again, if your father was a jerk, well, who knows. I just cannot see the viewpoint of the author. The men I see complaining about not being able to get female attention are all far from intelligent. Very far.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information because it defies both casual observation and more formal studies. It is borderline delusional with how asynchronous it is with reality.
"In general, intelligent men do just fine with women. I never hear brilliant men complaining about getting female attention."
https://shorturl.at/qzNhA
"Last December I passed a paper along to Razib showing that high-school age adolescents with higher IQs and extremely low IQs were less likely to have had first intercourse than those with average to below average intelligence. (i.e. for males with IQs under 70, 63.3% were still virgins, for those with IQs between 70-90 only 50.2% were virgin, 58.6% were virgins with IQs between 90-110, and 70.3% with IQs over 110 were virgins)"
"I would also make one strong criticism of your example of Bill Gates. Many men have different ideas of beauty."
No. Bill Gates wanted hot young women and had a hard time. Read the quote below and see that Bill was just like Neil Gaiman in his unrestrained, thirsty and creepy nature:
"Bill Gates was like a 'kid in a candy store' with young pretty Microsoft interns, so much so that they were banned from being alone with him, an upcoming book claims."
"I cannot imagine any other reason to explain why younger women were so much more interested in me than women my own age"
Try harder.
I must be delusional then. I would also state that their definition of "higher IQs" was not particularly high. They also did not bother to control for other traits, which I guess I should expect given the overall quality of analysis that is typical in studies of this kind (I have a strong suspicion that the authors of this, and plenty of other "good" studies that were peer reviewed and published could not figure out how to run a regression with more than one variable in a google sheet.
I am not discounting data, but rather the complete failure of academics in psychology and sociology to even try to understand the data sets that they are working on. That is another topic, but your study is not a great one. I would not give it dramatically more value that the smell test of any guy who got laid a lot in a large high school.
Pertaining to your last point, if Bill Gates wanted young women, why on earth would he harass interns? That makes no sense. He could order young women whenever he wanted to. Escort services have been a thing for the last few millennia. You do not marry a piece of tail, unless you are REALLY stupid. A wife is not a toy. That is silly. I will assume you must be unfamiliar with the institution of marriage. One marries the mother of his CHILDREN. Not a hot bimbo, an intelligent, strong woman who will take care of his offspring. Intelligence and inner strength do matter more than physical attractiveness in that regard. I doubt any man who is not an idiot or over the age of 22 who would marry a hot bimbo. The idea is ridiculous. Bill Gates got as many pretty women as he wanted, then he married a good woman to raise his children. FYI, powerful men do not waste time chasing young women. They have everything but time. I have worked with men no where close to Gates-level wealth, and they would never risk their company chasing interns. They order call girls like normal wealthy men. Really rich guys order a dozen, pay for all of them, then send all but one or two home. I knew a girl got into that life. It was sad, but I could understand it. She would charge guys like this $15k to $30 k to take vacations with her and pretend to be together. She would go to weddings, hang out with colleagues,..., and the men were fine. They even bought her clothing and jewelry (strange aside, I sold a few of the watches she was given). This type of arrangement is standard in every community across the US.
I feel absolutely confident in saying that you are absolutely wrong on this one. I very well may be delusional. Who am I kidding, I am delusional, but Bill Gates was never desperate after he had a few million in liquid assets. That is a world I know from an earlier life. Hang out in the lobby of any nice hotel in a large city and you will see the young girls come in. Rich men do not risk casual relationships.
Not so much delusional as a) ignorant and b) wrong.
Argumentum ad imaginationem, which is to say an appeal to your own imagination, is not valid here. Or anywhere, for that matter.
"Pertaining to your last point, if Bill Gates wanted young women, why on earth would he harass interns? That makes no sense"
Because he's a wierdo. If you want more precise language he has a warped view of transactional sex, innate desirability and lack of ability to parlay his success into sexual attractiveness in line with Epstein, Weinstein and Neil Gaiman. These people demonstrably exist who have status and money beyond 99.999% of the population but are absolutely not able to bed women as well as a hunky barista on a Friday night. I post testimony that he creeps after interns and your response is that he actually doesn't because that reality doesn't match your personal beliefs. You see this right?
The very assertion that you are citing prostitution as a replacement for genuine desire from women is the tell that you don't understand their situation at all. It matters. Neil Gaiman and Bill would rather have women who are compelled to have sex with them via threats and power politics in lieu of genuine desire over getting a prostitute. We can see this, we have seen this, we are currently seeing this.
It's inane that your only defense of your points is, "Nuh uh!" You want more papers? Here's one that describes working memory as being negatively correlated to sexual debut and touches upon the negative correlation between high IQ and sexual debut: https://shorturl.at/ObVZ5
These things are all over the place in study of proxy elements, anecdotes, direct analysis and so on.
Feel free to give us your own perfect study or logical-testable-reasoning if you have an objection.
"Rich men do not risk casual relationships."
Rich gamma men risk casual relationships.
"Bill Gates’s private office reportedly asked some female job candidates about their sexual histories — including what kind of pornography they liked, whether they ever had extramarital affairs and even if they had nude pictures of themselves on their phones.
During Gates’s extensive screening process, a security firm also asked some women if they ever “danced for dollars,” sources told The Wall Street Journal.
Another candidate told the outlet that she was asked whether she had ever contracted a sexually transmitted disease.
It was unclear if any male candidates were asked similarly personal questions during the hiring process for Gates’s private office, called Gates Ventures, and none interviewed by The Journal said they had."
I live in Bradenton, FLA. A woman I knew some years ago (Bradenton’s grapevine initiated) told me that Bill Gates drew up in his yacht at the Bradenton pier with his “mistress.” I guess that is the one he read astronomy treatises with while on their one-week-a-year affair? Not sex, mutual reinforcement as “geniuses” (or as I say, genii). For SEX he prefers more nubile maidens.
"If you can use your intelligence to create social dominance, or to successfully synthesize the appearance and behavior of higher status men, that’s a much more effective approach."
Nailed it.
This is exactly what Gates did not do. One of his success traits was he was very competitive--he was so consumed with dominating and winning in the tech sector, that he never applied his aggressiveness (and he was highly aggressive) to physical or social improvement. So, when he went mate shopping--he got both exactly what he wanted (someone he judged would be a great mom) and precisely what he could attract.
Roissy (Chateau Heartiste) got this right years ago - being too smart can actually hurt your chances with women. The 2SD communications gap is real.
An intelligent man who doesn't manage his appearance is clearly unwell.
"Why bother getting a haircut? Nobody will understand me anyway."
A tip for all commenters, past and present, here and elsewhere:
If something you've read has raised your hackles, shut up. Look at those feelings and consider why you are so incensed, perhaps, but be silent until the haze has passed.
Then read what someone who didn't do all that wrote. Nine times out of ten, you'll realize you were about to sound foolish.
SHUT UP! YOUR NOT MY REAL DAD! YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO! THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH FACE TATTOOS!
Especially if you are autistic or suffer from ADHD. I learnt rather recently that there is something called RSD - Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. All the autists and ADDers attest to the sufferings caused by this condition. This would apply to females as a group, but only that it is usually not dysphoric if you are female.
Wow, a scientific name for being butthurt
One difference though: The sufferers readily admit to suffering from RSD but not if you call it butt hurt syndrome.
It's not whining if it has three clinical sounding words to describe it.
They are just not neurotypical.