I recall encountering that referenced article a bit ago. DNFed it as it's point seemed... vague. And heavily shaded with feminism based on some memes, keywords, if not radical feminism. Read/scanned it to the end after reading SG's completely.
I felt like CD's article came from the wrong angle at something that may or not exist writ large. Scanning through, there's a lot of places where I'm getting a distinctly discordant echo from the words on the page, things not computing, being cast in odd ways. M vs F perspectives at a clash, or setting up a standard of values that don't compute. Something's not right.
Thank you Vox, your article has helped open my eyes and ears to things about females that had not even thought about. A lot of Women being more solipsistic makes more sense. The fact that many of us have had times where women have acted completely with no empathy is a lot more times than men. Also adding the fact that if a man acted like some women do to other men they would quickly get punched.
Just one question how much does culture and social rules affect this dynamic?
2 things (And I guess technology plays a factor) I was thinking.
1. The West when majority Christianity in the past restricted things like sex, marriage and divorce. Meaning a man and woman in theory needed to restrict themselves to one partner (obvious examples where this did not happen).
(Example of how things have change in the west, In America it wasn't until 1974 that women were allowed to apply for and own a credit card in their name, before that they needed their husbands to co sign it).
2. I notice in Asia (Mostly talking about North east Asians) and it is changing (for the worst), the way women and men treat each other. I (White male) get more respect from the average Asian woman (NE or SE) than I do from the average White woman, also it is generally nice to chat. It could be I am blind to the problems that Asian males have with Asian women.
YouTubers like Hoe_Math have it down (although can also be seen as misogynistic). It's hypergamy, that women are chasing the 8s, 9s and 10s. Those men are not treated with distain. It's the 7s and below that are continuous rejected by women, even those of lesser status.
Yup. I still like women because my baseline appreciation of every person is high but women have certainly treated me worse than have men. Usually I don't care because most social ties aren't so deep that it matters. But my first girlfriend was awful to me and freaked the fuck out the only time I ever sent the same energy back to her. I dumped her because to be with her I had to not care about her emotions but I didn't want to be a callous person.
So I've learned that a hard requirement for me to date a woman is she isn't awful to me. I just can't take a partner unseriously enough to ignore bad behavior in someone I'm binding my life to. Gaining status made this easier but bad behavior always crops up so most women aren't wife material.
I read this immediately after reading an article about a woman whose husband *repeatedly* drugged her, let various men rape her while she was unconscious without using protection, which exposed her to HIV among other serious health issues, accused her of cheating when she realized she had STDs... oh yeah, and some of the men raping her were neighbors, friends of the family, etc... and then this insecure bro comes along and acts like someone tittering about someone else's hairstyle is tReAtInG tHeM hOrRiBlY. He uses examples of *literal children* having behavioral issues as evidence that women are mean. Women changing their opinion is a problem? Um, intelligent people of whatever gender change their minds when presented with new information-- and that's a good thing. Why be needlessly stubborn when there's something new influencing one's viewpoint? That's just unreasonable to never change. He mostly sounds like my abusive ex after I made some sarcastic comments instead of doing what I actually wanted to do to him, which was much much, much worse.
That's a lot of words to say that you think women are justified in treating most men badly. No wonder men don't like you. And telling us how you were just nasty to your ex instead of giving into your wish to do violence to him isn't exactly disproving the central thesis here.
What man or woman wouldn't be tempted to punch a woman as obviously awful as Anna Cole? If she's telling the truth about her "abusive ex" it sounds like even the man she married couldn't restrain himself.
It's not rhetoric that motivates gender-based violence. It's behavior.
Every now and then the LinkedIn algorithm serves up on trending "female leaders unpopular with most men and women". Everyone seethes but no-one ever asks why this is so. (:
I like women more than men and I’m straight, fairly masculine, and low status, but all of this in this article is still fair to say, it’s all very common behaviour from women.
Yes, women are nasty and mean to everyone, especially other women they find as competition. However, something I noticed growing up was that it was often the boys around us during puberty that trained many girls to be this way, or at least, they allowed a certain class of girls to do and say whatever they wanted. That class was girls with big breasts early on. From about 12 years of age, the girl with the boobs was instantly idolized. Boys would flock to her and she could be as mean and horrible as she wanted. As an athlete who was flat chested until 17, I learned early on that if I wanted males in my life, I needed to have manners. Laugh at their jokes. Engage in dialogue about sports and cars. Fortunately for me, I naturally love football, cars, guns, and most things male because the girls were also mean to me, so the boys were my refuge. Still, those endowed girls learned to shake their boobs and toss their hair and get what they want and I would blame the males for that. Now these women are 50 and those boobs are sagging, and they're downright nastier than ever and I feel badly for them, and even worse for their husbands whom they berate at every chance because that's how they've always behaved, for they never learned the arts of conversation and kindness. They only had their beauty, which paid them well until that beauty faded. Now they're faced with surgery, and even that isn't going to give them what they need to compete with fresher, younger, big boobs. Anyway, if you want people to treat you well, you need to train them to do so, and the earlier the better.
Yeah, I guess? Just something I noticed when I was young and now see it as an older woman. Those of us who are an 8-10 when young, like in our teens, don't learn manners in general. They get away with a lot because of their beauty and yes, male attention is key to that since that's part of the way we women organize our own hierarchy, so in that way it's our fault as well. Girls who are 6-8 in their teens but then move into the 8-10 later in life, usually because they physically develop slower (late bloomers?) have developed personality skills and then beauty, which is good because beauty does fade no matter when it's granted to you, however your personality in your elder years determines whether you're a matriarch with power, or a self-conscious wreck addicted to Botox. It's a blessing in many ways.
OK thanks for the clarification, and I appreciate the honest and sincere dialogue. I saw this myself as something of an ugly duckling. I didn't grow into my body and face until my last growth spurt around 19. My experience with women prior to that was completely different to what it's been like ever since. That difference absolutely has helped form my opinions of men and women.
Exactly! My relationship with men totally changed around 19 as well. Before that, I did happen to be a cheerleader, so that gave me some cred with both genders, but had a plain face and boyish body because I was also a gymnast. The boys weren't mean to me, but if I wanted their attention, I needed to engage with them, be kind, laugh, while my beautiful, busty counterparts could shit all over them and they'd come running to me for advice on how to "get her back." After I went to college, my body changed and suddenly, I was sought after by the males. By then, I'd learned how to talk to the opposite sex and treat them with respect. Not that I was perfect, but I've long been interested in people, getting to know them, and treating each other with dignity. Seems important in society.
When I read that article, and looked at the pictures of the men she thought liked women. They all looked dominant to me, and from my experience, dominant men do like women and all their little foibles. These were just alphas that take care of all females in the vicinity.
He’s probably not interested in your handicrafts, he’s just interested in giving you the time and attention you need as a female. The next female that wants to talk Twilight will also be given respectful attention.
(4) five years?!?!? I always told you guys, Vox is an incurable romantic with rose tinted glasses. I think about 5 days would be my limit. And it was indeed about that for some years.
You’re onto something but I think your framing is off. The phenomenon you describe doesn’t mean men don’t like women. It actually describes what it means to be a man, as in Kipling’s “you will be a man, my son.”
I have never been treated badly by women, nor have I seen them treat anyone badly. But I have never been around very pretty women, the kind in the US woul be called cheerleaders. Perhaps they are likely to put people down, I don't know, certain society lets very pretty people get away with a lot.
If you lack confidence, charisma and/or looks I think the treatment is pretty bad. I've seen it with a handful of friends of mine. One has everything going in the height dept (6'5") and is a decent looking guy. But he's reserved and not charismatic and has been treated horribly by women well into adulthood. Lifelong bachelor..to date..b/c of it. I cant believe some of the shitty treatment he's experienced from some of these women. Despite lacking the height, he has, Ive never been treated that badly by any woman I've been romantically involved with or interested in.
I distinctly remember one woman in particular. I had a brief fling with her, but met a better one whom Im now married to. Despite not wanting to commit to her, I still liked her as a person. She was very cute and wanted to settle down with a good guy. I made the stupid mistake of playing matchmaker. I set my buddy and her up. They went on one date, she proceeded to act like a total bitch to him and treated him horribly. He still to this day talks about what a bitch she was to him.
She never had acted that way towards me. But..she sure as hell did towards him.
I couldnt figure it out, but the nastiness towards him was real.
I recall encountering that referenced article a bit ago. DNFed it as it's point seemed... vague. And heavily shaded with feminism based on some memes, keywords, if not radical feminism. Read/scanned it to the end after reading SG's completely.
I felt like CD's article came from the wrong angle at something that may or not exist writ large. Scanning through, there's a lot of places where I'm getting a distinctly discordant echo from the words on the page, things not computing, being cast in odd ways. M vs F perspectives at a clash, or setting up a standard of values that don't compute. Something's not right.
Thank you Vox, your article has helped open my eyes and ears to things about females that had not even thought about. A lot of Women being more solipsistic makes more sense. The fact that many of us have had times where women have acted completely with no empathy is a lot more times than men. Also adding the fact that if a man acted like some women do to other men they would quickly get punched.
Just one question how much does culture and social rules affect this dynamic?
2 things (And I guess technology plays a factor) I was thinking.
1. The West when majority Christianity in the past restricted things like sex, marriage and divorce. Meaning a man and woman in theory needed to restrict themselves to one partner (obvious examples where this did not happen).
(Example of how things have change in the west, In America it wasn't until 1974 that women were allowed to apply for and own a credit card in their name, before that they needed their husbands to co sign it).
2. I notice in Asia (Mostly talking about North east Asians) and it is changing (for the worst), the way women and men treat each other. I (White male) get more respect from the average Asian woman (NE or SE) than I do from the average White woman, also it is generally nice to chat. It could be I am blind to the problems that Asian males have with Asian women.
YouTubers like Hoe_Math have it down (although can also be seen as misogynistic). It's hypergamy, that women are chasing the 8s, 9s and 10s. Those men are not treated with distain. It's the 7s and below that are continuous rejected by women, even those of lesser status.
Yup. I still like women because my baseline appreciation of every person is high but women have certainly treated me worse than have men. Usually I don't care because most social ties aren't so deep that it matters. But my first girlfriend was awful to me and freaked the fuck out the only time I ever sent the same energy back to her. I dumped her because to be with her I had to not care about her emotions but I didn't want to be a callous person.
So I've learned that a hard requirement for me to date a woman is she isn't awful to me. I just can't take a partner unseriously enough to ignore bad behavior in someone I'm binding my life to. Gaining status made this easier but bad behavior always crops up so most women aren't wife material.
Okay, I admit, after all the comments about that article, I clicked over. Well that was a mistake.
I am not a fan of female nature and even less so after reading this. Men are downright altruistic and wholesome compared to this shit.
this is the dumbest fucking thing ive ever read in my life.
I read this immediately after reading an article about a woman whose husband *repeatedly* drugged her, let various men rape her while she was unconscious without using protection, which exposed her to HIV among other serious health issues, accused her of cheating when she realized she had STDs... oh yeah, and some of the men raping her were neighbors, friends of the family, etc... and then this insecure bro comes along and acts like someone tittering about someone else's hairstyle is tReAtInG tHeM hOrRiBlY. He uses examples of *literal children* having behavioral issues as evidence that women are mean. Women changing their opinion is a problem? Um, intelligent people of whatever gender change their minds when presented with new information-- and that's a good thing. Why be needlessly stubborn when there's something new influencing one's viewpoint? That's just unreasonable to never change. He mostly sounds like my abusive ex after I made some sarcastic comments instead of doing what I actually wanted to do to him, which was much much, much worse.
That's a lot of words to say that you think women are justified in treating most men badly. No wonder men don't like you. And telling us how you were just nasty to your ex instead of giving into your wish to do violence to him isn't exactly disproving the central thesis here.
exactly--this is the kind of rhetoric that motivates gender-based violence
What man or woman wouldn't be tempted to punch a woman as obviously awful as Anna Cole? If she's telling the truth about her "abusive ex" it sounds like even the man she married couldn't restrain himself.
It's not rhetoric that motivates gender-based violence. It's behavior.
Relax. Just because you didn't understand it doesn't make it stupid. It's just over your head. Now, go back to the TV, you'll feel better.
This feels like reading an ingot refined from my very own thoughts. I reckon I have nothing better to say about this than 'bravo!'
Every now and then the LinkedIn algorithm serves up on trending "female leaders unpopular with most men and women". Everyone seethes but no-one ever asks why this is so. (:
I like women more than men and I’m straight, fairly masculine, and low status, but all of this in this article is still fair to say, it’s all very common behaviour from women.
Yes, women are nasty and mean to everyone, especially other women they find as competition. However, something I noticed growing up was that it was often the boys around us during puberty that trained many girls to be this way, or at least, they allowed a certain class of girls to do and say whatever they wanted. That class was girls with big breasts early on. From about 12 years of age, the girl with the boobs was instantly idolized. Boys would flock to her and she could be as mean and horrible as she wanted. As an athlete who was flat chested until 17, I learned early on that if I wanted males in my life, I needed to have manners. Laugh at their jokes. Engage in dialogue about sports and cars. Fortunately for me, I naturally love football, cars, guns, and most things male because the girls were also mean to me, so the boys were my refuge. Still, those endowed girls learned to shake their boobs and toss their hair and get what they want and I would blame the males for that. Now these women are 50 and those boobs are sagging, and they're downright nastier than ever and I feel badly for them, and even worse for their husbands whom they berate at every chance because that's how they've always behaved, for they never learned the arts of conversation and kindness. They only had their beauty, which paid them well until that beauty faded. Now they're faced with surgery, and even that isn't going to give them what they need to compete with fresher, younger, big boobs. Anyway, if you want people to treat you well, you need to train them to do so, and the earlier the better.
So...it's still men's fault lol
Yeah, I guess? Just something I noticed when I was young and now see it as an older woman. Those of us who are an 8-10 when young, like in our teens, don't learn manners in general. They get away with a lot because of their beauty and yes, male attention is key to that since that's part of the way we women organize our own hierarchy, so in that way it's our fault as well. Girls who are 6-8 in their teens but then move into the 8-10 later in life, usually because they physically develop slower (late bloomers?) have developed personality skills and then beauty, which is good because beauty does fade no matter when it's granted to you, however your personality in your elder years determines whether you're a matriarch with power, or a self-conscious wreck addicted to Botox. It's a blessing in many ways.
OK thanks for the clarification, and I appreciate the honest and sincere dialogue. I saw this myself as something of an ugly duckling. I didn't grow into my body and face until my last growth spurt around 19. My experience with women prior to that was completely different to what it's been like ever since. That difference absolutely has helped form my opinions of men and women.
Exactly! My relationship with men totally changed around 19 as well. Before that, I did happen to be a cheerleader, so that gave me some cred with both genders, but had a plain face and boyish body because I was also a gymnast. The boys weren't mean to me, but if I wanted their attention, I needed to engage with them, be kind, laugh, while my beautiful, busty counterparts could shit all over them and they'd come running to me for advice on how to "get her back." After I went to college, my body changed and suddenly, I was sought after by the males. By then, I'd learned how to talk to the opposite sex and treat them with respect. Not that I was perfect, but I've long been interested in people, getting to know them, and treating each other with dignity. Seems important in society.
When I read that article, and looked at the pictures of the men she thought liked women. They all looked dominant to me, and from my experience, dominant men do like women and all their little foibles. These were just alphas that take care of all females in the vicinity.
He’s probably not interested in your handicrafts, he’s just interested in giving you the time and attention you need as a female. The next female that wants to talk Twilight will also be given respectful attention.
(4) five years?!?!? I always told you guys, Vox is an incurable romantic with rose tinted glasses. I think about 5 days would be my limit. And it was indeed about that for some years.
The husband/ wife scenes in A Throne of Bones reveal the Dark Lord's sweet side!
You’re onto something but I think your framing is off. The phenomenon you describe doesn’t mean men don’t like women. It actually describes what it means to be a man, as in Kipling’s “you will be a man, my son.”
What the hollywood woman means by liking women is not what we would mean by it. She means DEI promoting women.
I have never been treated badly by women, nor have I seen them treat anyone badly. But I have never been around very pretty women, the kind in the US woul be called cheerleaders. Perhaps they are likely to put people down, I don't know, certain society lets very pretty people get away with a lot.
You might be in a pleasant bubble. There's a very large difference in how women in different social circles behave.
If you lack confidence, charisma and/or looks I think the treatment is pretty bad. I've seen it with a handful of friends of mine. One has everything going in the height dept (6'5") and is a decent looking guy. But he's reserved and not charismatic and has been treated horribly by women well into adulthood. Lifelong bachelor..to date..b/c of it. I cant believe some of the shitty treatment he's experienced from some of these women. Despite lacking the height, he has, Ive never been treated that badly by any woman I've been romantically involved with or interested in.
I distinctly remember one woman in particular. I had a brief fling with her, but met a better one whom Im now married to. Despite not wanting to commit to her, I still liked her as a person. She was very cute and wanted to settle down with a good guy. I made the stupid mistake of playing matchmaker. I set my buddy and her up. They went on one date, she proceeded to act like a total bitch to him and treated him horribly. He still to this day talks about what a bitch she was to him.
She never had acted that way towards me. But..she sure as hell did towards him.
I couldnt figure it out, but the nastiness towards him was real.
Good article. It’s modern women in my view. Post 1980. The prior legions of women had far better manners around most men.