Running into something this week because I looked up tools for classroom management, gave me pause.
One common item viz giving correction, advised to make a statement that could apply to anyone. This would allow the mistake-making student to save face with his peers. Two guesses which sex made this recommendation.
In light of the current posts by the SDL, that makes female solipsism a survival mechanism. Because when the woman with the most social influence, or mate-associated status makes a general negative comment... It could very likely be your opportunity to mend your ways without serious consequences.
Keep in mind that women both gossip and confabulate, so this could also be your one chance to head off a vicious attack.
So the reason women fell in love with the Gospel faster than men is that it saved us from each other. Better at communication (verbal assault) but worse at empathy. Yoiks.
Here is my criticism. A better example of a virtually non-empathetic person would be someone with very severe autism. The problem with the psychopath example is that psychopaths can recognize, perceive, and generally comprehend the emotional cues of others, while not being able to relate to them themselves, while some cases of severe autism make even recognizing all or many social cues extremely difficult. The severe autist is more generally unempathetic than the psychopath. The neurology passage does define pyschopaths as lacking empathy, however it states that this empathetic deficiency is 1. about affective empathy or emotional contagion 2. about imagining subjects rather than perceiving real ones. So while this does prove that psychopaths lack the affective channel for stimuli that could be processed into empathetic insights for, they do not lack all of them.
Here and in the past you have defined empathy generally as correct identification of other's states and even more specifically as correct perception. Because of this, psychopaths do possess a functioning empathy by definition. The question of whether or not this should count as cognitive empathy is complex. As I understand it, you believe that cognitive empathy cannot by definition be empathy, however intellectual recognition, no matter how fast or seemingly intuitive, is still a type of cognition. To break it down:
Cognitive empathy with the perception of real subjects in psychopathy:
- Is the perception and recognition of people's emotional states
Cognitive empathy without the perception of subjects in general:
- Perspective taking or as you call it simulation after or before the fact
We can easily discard the second type of so-called cognitive empathy which does not involve the perception of real subjects. I propose that this more narrow definition of cognitive empathy that deals specifically with real subjects is actually the same as your definition that deals perception and intellectual apprehension of the states of others. That is not to say the quality of psychopathic empathy is not different, it clearly would be, as they would have no experiential reference to the states they perceive. They would still however be aware of them and their implications for the subject's future behavior. A more personal example, even if you yourself are not well acquainted with feelings of jealousy, you can still understand the state of jealousy. To say that psychopaths would have to comprehend the fullness of jealousy I think is arbitrary, and presents many problems for people who receive less affective feedback or have less of a personal reference to a particular state.
Take it up with the people who literally defined psychopathy. I'm not even remotely interested in your concerns about what is, or is not arbitrary. Definitions are arbitrary, that doesn't make them incorrect or call their existence into question. That way lies calling good evil and evil good.
I recommend contemplating the fact that you're much more interested in quibbling about irrelevant details than you are in applying things that observably work to improve your life and the lives of those around you. If you want to believe that smart psychopaths are empathatic, feel free. There is even a relatively new school of psychological thought that asserts the existence of dark empaths.
Whatever. Faking something that isn't there doesn't mean you possess that which you do not have. Because perception is not reality.
I think you can safely define psychopaty as antiempathy. They go off on the suffering of others. They also permanently find a way parasitize others. The absence of empathy as Determined points out is autistic trait.
A certain Dr. Edward Dutton does a lot of interesting work on these types of subjects. I can't recall the specifics of his stuff on psychopaths but I think it was something akin to what you were saying. I may offer that the difference could lie in how intelligent the person is. A low IQ psychopath may lack the ability to recognize the emotions of others while the higher IQ can, in a sort of pattern recognition way. They both would lack the "feeling" behind it, but one can at least catch on to how they are supposed to react if you will.
I am somewhat familiar with him. There likely is an IQ connection, though, even the sub midwit psychopath should be able to tell quite easily what cues and context mean what. The feeling or emotional contagion part of it I assume is what accelerates the understanding of emotional states in others in very young children. Psychopaths presumably would have to learn this through trial and error and observation and with no internal reference to what state means what, with the exception of more primal states like heightened arousal, basic pleasure, etc. I see no reason why this should not count as empathy. It seems arbitrary to draw the line at affective feelings if we simply define it as correct identification. Some men do not have much affective feelings at all but are still highly empathetic. Affective feelings are just one type of stimuli that can be used to glean empathetic insights and everything passes through cognitive recognition.
I doubt that. I bet psychopaths also have all emotional states, perhaps except love. If so they would have grounds to understand negative impacts of their actions instead of celebrating 'winning' over their girlfriends as I saw in one documentary, when a male successfully 'screwed' a girlfriend financially.
Thank you for restating the definition of empathy. Empathy has been a help to work inside SJW equivalents to Boyd's OODA loop, something like "observe, exclude, decry, shriek" to be facetious. Also thanks for a timely reminder about adjectives; almost slipped on a couple modifiers.
The Litany Against Retardery is already cleansing the last month of SJW sludge off my mind. Last couple months included a lot of slogging through female and Gamma male mites. This was mentally exhausting and a spiritual drain.
When psychopaths find themselves facing a social situation that's entirely new to them - that they do not know the "proper" responses to - that's when they act weird and you can see behind the facade. That's the opposite of empathy; a person with high empathy is able to read other people and read the room and then act accordingly.
When I got anything wrong or made any mistakes I would be shamed by my older sibling. Or course there have also been people who told me I will always be a loser no matter what I do.
But learning to roll with being wrong. Embracing the pain of being wrong and adapting to the truth was hard at first but it became normalised. Being low status is nothing compared to living true and being faithful to God. And knowing that I am loved by God really helps.
Being in a job right now where I cannot make excuses because there is no choice but to solve the problem by any means also helps. Being given the necessary tools and being able to call on help when needed. And requiring me to be a man of action.
I think the current liberal culture provides positive reinforcement for gamma (and lambda) behavior because end stage culturees are degenerate and reward disability.
But this is not sustainable, and will stop. The gammatude of the capital ends right quick when the capital falls.
However, there is a base rate of this. About 15% of men are midwits. If they do not have their wormtounge trained out of them -- which is why rough sports exist -- then you have problems. Functional societes train such men when they are boys to not do that. Ours does not.
Dude look at Gen Z most of these kids sit in front of a computer ALL DAY LONG can’t interact with people (let alone women) have some kind of mental disorder.
Also sports have been deprioritized while there are SOME standout athletes the Paul brothers etc it really is looking bad
There are entire cultures of high school sports with hundreds of kids at each one very involved, and what they do on their computers and phones is totally oblivious to you
I’ve conversed quite a bit with Zoomers my friend maybe that’s you’re experience but it’s well known this generation is more addicted to social media retarded games like Fortnite and whatnot than gen x or even millenials
It is insightful to observe that his second response is yet another giveaway on gamma, pulling the card of 'I was just joking, so here is what I meant' to escape shame and humiliation—his greatest fear, yet one he readily projects onto others to derive pleasure. Indifference serves as a shield.
This week we've had some good discussions here. Empathy, sympathy and a few good tunes. That's a good way to wrap up the last work week before celebrating the birth of our savior.
There's been some good discussion about the concepts, but I didn't see anyone share their experience with their practical application. What do these things look like in the real world? So, I wanted to share some personal experience as a military leader with you about ways that one can employ empathy to improve just not performance, but the true espirit de corps of your organization.
This is a long post, so bear with me while I set the background and talk about myself a little bit. At one point in my life, I was an enlisted soldier in the U.S. Army that eventually went on to become an officer. During that time, I was awarded the command of a Headquarters Company, which is a notoriously difficult assignment. One of those difficulties is that the soldiers who make up the unit are supply clerks, cooks, admin types, etc. These aren't necessarily bad soldiers, but sometimes they need extra motivation to meet the minimum standards. It's common for them to underperform on the physical fitness test and marksmanship, which are some of the fundamentals of soldiering. To add an extra layer of difficulty this was a reserve unit so, we would only the see the soldiers 2-3 days per month for training. How do you motivate people in this situation to the level that they become physically fit on their own individual effort? That's a question that I had spent quite a bit of time pondering. Since I had been an enlisted soldier for 10 years I could empathize with them and also be sympathetic. It wasn't an abstract exercise or some conceptual model, it was real life experience. Therefore, I knew that their outlook on themselves and where they fit into the whole was the underlying problem. They were not personally bought in because they felt like no one really cared about them as people and they hadn't tasted the sweetness of success. They didn't see themselves as valuable members of the team. The concept here is that if this problem is solved then many of the other problems will take care of themselves.
So, orders were given to every leader from the platoon leaders down to the squad leaders to make a phone call at least twice per month to each of their soldiers. The idea here is to increase involvement on a personal level and to know and understand what's going on in those soldier's lives. We were building cohesiveness. I wanted leaders that cared about their soldiers and got involved in their lives. There was some resistance to this and some 'well, actually...' but in the end it became standard practice. This may have been the most important thing we did.
Another example of something that was successful is one that was empathetic, but not necessarily sympathetic. There's no shortage of excuses for why soldiers fail to meet the minimum physical requirements, and barring a medical problem, very little sympathy was given. By regulation, if a soldier fails 3 consecutive tests with no less than 60 days between each test the soldier is separated from the service. Luckily, a 'diagnostic' fitness test can be given every day, if the commander choses. In this case, it was every month. So, every soldier that did not have a passing physical fitness score was given a diagnostic physical fitness as the first order of business every duty weekend hell or high water. This was to continue until every soldier either passes or finds a different career. This was also met with derision from some, but I had my way. Some of those tested tried things like 'forgetting' their fitness uniform to avoid the effort, but luckily for them there is no prohibition against running in boots. Some examples had to be made. What I personally did for this group was that I maintained a very high level of personnel fitness, and I also took the test with them every month even if it was just one soldier. I pushed them, encouraged them and led them. Once I completed the run, I would double back and run with those that were struggling. I wanted them to know that I cared enough about them to also put myself out there with them rain or shine. Follow me! Eventually, they really want to perform and won't accept less from themselves.
Ultimately, this didn't help me nearly as much as it helped them. Many of them went on to become excellent leaders themselves and some are now senior officers using these methods to inspire other young people.
There's much, much more to this story, and maybe some day it will get written. Thanks for reading.
We need more leaders like you. Military leadership is becoming a lost art nowadays and it’s important to have soldiers, the men defending our country, who aren’t quitters.
Words seem to have no definition in the world of retardery.
Whenever you see a word inserted in front of a perfectly useful term, grab for yer wallet.
With a litany like that, the sleeper must awaken.
Running into something this week because I looked up tools for classroom management, gave me pause.
One common item viz giving correction, advised to make a statement that could apply to anyone. This would allow the mistake-making student to save face with his peers. Two guesses which sex made this recommendation.
In light of the current posts by the SDL, that makes female solipsism a survival mechanism. Because when the woman with the most social influence, or mate-associated status makes a general negative comment... It could very likely be your opportunity to mend your ways without serious consequences.
Keep in mind that women both gossip and confabulate, so this could also be your one chance to head off a vicious attack.
So the reason women fell in love with the Gospel faster than men is that it saved us from each other. Better at communication (verbal assault) but worse at empathy. Yoiks.
*Male teachers preferred escalated-as-appriate student-specific intervention.
Here is my criticism. A better example of a virtually non-empathetic person would be someone with very severe autism. The problem with the psychopath example is that psychopaths can recognize, perceive, and generally comprehend the emotional cues of others, while not being able to relate to them themselves, while some cases of severe autism make even recognizing all or many social cues extremely difficult. The severe autist is more generally unempathetic than the psychopath. The neurology passage does define pyschopaths as lacking empathy, however it states that this empathetic deficiency is 1. about affective empathy or emotional contagion 2. about imagining subjects rather than perceiving real ones. So while this does prove that psychopaths lack the affective channel for stimuli that could be processed into empathetic insights for, they do not lack all of them.
Here and in the past you have defined empathy generally as correct identification of other's states and even more specifically as correct perception. Because of this, psychopaths do possess a functioning empathy by definition. The question of whether or not this should count as cognitive empathy is complex. As I understand it, you believe that cognitive empathy cannot by definition be empathy, however intellectual recognition, no matter how fast or seemingly intuitive, is still a type of cognition. To break it down:
Cognitive empathy with the perception of real subjects in psychopathy:
- Is the perception and recognition of people's emotional states
Cognitive empathy without the perception of subjects in general:
- Perspective taking or as you call it simulation after or before the fact
We can easily discard the second type of so-called cognitive empathy which does not involve the perception of real subjects. I propose that this more narrow definition of cognitive empathy that deals specifically with real subjects is actually the same as your definition that deals perception and intellectual apprehension of the states of others. That is not to say the quality of psychopathic empathy is not different, it clearly would be, as they would have no experiential reference to the states they perceive. They would still however be aware of them and their implications for the subject's future behavior. A more personal example, even if you yourself are not well acquainted with feelings of jealousy, you can still understand the state of jealousy. To say that psychopaths would have to comprehend the fullness of jealousy I think is arbitrary, and presents many problems for people who receive less affective feedback or have less of a personal reference to a particular state.
Take it up with the people who literally defined psychopathy. I'm not even remotely interested in your concerns about what is, or is not arbitrary. Definitions are arbitrary, that doesn't make them incorrect or call their existence into question. That way lies calling good evil and evil good.
I recommend contemplating the fact that you're much more interested in quibbling about irrelevant details than you are in applying things that observably work to improve your life and the lives of those around you. If you want to believe that smart psychopaths are empathatic, feel free. There is even a relatively new school of psychological thought that asserts the existence of dark empaths.
Whatever. Faking something that isn't there doesn't mean you possess that which you do not have. Because perception is not reality.
I think you can safely define psychopaty as antiempathy. They go off on the suffering of others. They also permanently find a way parasitize others. The absence of empathy as Determined points out is autistic trait.
A certain Dr. Edward Dutton does a lot of interesting work on these types of subjects. I can't recall the specifics of his stuff on psychopaths but I think it was something akin to what you were saying. I may offer that the difference could lie in how intelligent the person is. A low IQ psychopath may lack the ability to recognize the emotions of others while the higher IQ can, in a sort of pattern recognition way. They both would lack the "feeling" behind it, but one can at least catch on to how they are supposed to react if you will.
I am somewhat familiar with him. There likely is an IQ connection, though, even the sub midwit psychopath should be able to tell quite easily what cues and context mean what. The feeling or emotional contagion part of it I assume is what accelerates the understanding of emotional states in others in very young children. Psychopaths presumably would have to learn this through trial and error and observation and with no internal reference to what state means what, with the exception of more primal states like heightened arousal, basic pleasure, etc. I see no reason why this should not count as empathy. It seems arbitrary to draw the line at affective feelings if we simply define it as correct identification. Some men do not have much affective feelings at all but are still highly empathetic. Affective feelings are just one type of stimuli that can be used to glean empathetic insights and everything passes through cognitive recognition.
Yeah I'll be the first to say I don't know. Hopefully I've commented enough to get Vox to weigh in on it lol
Well, thank you then.
Maybe a psychopath can only recognize the emotional states that result from her own antics and not those that do not.
I doubt that. I bet psychopaths also have all emotional states, perhaps except love. If so they would have grounds to understand negative impacts of their actions instead of celebrating 'winning' over their girlfriends as I saw in one documentary, when a male successfully 'screwed' a girlfriend financially.
That seems very arbitrary.
Yes, but isn't the fact that he doubled down confirm that he was akshually correct? Secret King wins again!
The Rectification of Names will continue until the retardery improves.
This is interaction is perhaps the Pieta of Gammatude.
Thank you for restating the definition of empathy. Empathy has been a help to work inside SJW equivalents to Boyd's OODA loop, something like "observe, exclude, decry, shriek" to be facetious. Also thanks for a timely reminder about adjectives; almost slipped on a couple modifiers.
The Litany Against Retardery is already cleansing the last month of SJW sludge off my mind. Last couple months included a lot of slogging through female and Gamma male mites. This was mentally exhausting and a spiritual drain.
ask google ngram about emotions,passions and empathy,sympathy
When psychopaths find themselves facing a social situation that's entirely new to them - that they do not know the "proper" responses to - that's when they act weird and you can see behind the facade. That's the opposite of empathy; a person with high empathy is able to read other people and read the room and then act accordingly.
"Amusingly, he even gifted us a living, breathing example of the “Ackchually” meme. Christmas came early, everyone!"
I think you meant "a living, heavy mouth-breathing example" of the meme. Really starting to doubt your Sigma cred after this obvious mistake.
When I got anything wrong or made any mistakes I would be shamed by my older sibling. Or course there have also been people who told me I will always be a loser no matter what I do.
But learning to roll with being wrong. Embracing the pain of being wrong and adapting to the truth was hard at first but it became normalised. Being low status is nothing compared to living true and being faithful to God. And knowing that I am loved by God really helps.
Being in a job right now where I cannot make excuses because there is no choice but to solve the problem by any means also helps. Being given the necessary tools and being able to call on help when needed. And requiring me to be a man of action.
I honestly think 30% of the American male population is gamma
I think the current liberal culture provides positive reinforcement for gamma (and lambda) behavior because end stage culturees are degenerate and reward disability.
But this is not sustainable, and will stop. The gammatude of the capital ends right quick when the capital falls.
However, there is a base rate of this. About 15% of men are midwits. If they do not have their wormtounge trained out of them -- which is why rough sports exist -- then you have problems. Functional societes train such men when they are boys to not do that. Ours does not.
Dude look at Gen Z most of these kids sit in front of a computer ALL DAY LONG can’t interact with people (let alone women) have some kind of mental disorder.
Also sports have been deprioritized while there are SOME standout athletes the Paul brothers etc it really is looking bad
you need to get out more…
There are entire cultures of high school sports with hundreds of kids at each one very involved, and what they do on their computers and phones is totally oblivious to you
I’ve conversed quite a bit with Zoomers my friend maybe that’s you’re experience but it’s well known this generation is more addicted to social media retarded games like Fortnite and whatnot than gen x or even millenials
It is insightful to observe that his second response is yet another giveaway on gamma, pulling the card of 'I was just joking, so here is what I meant' to escape shame and humiliation—his greatest fear, yet one he readily projects onto others to derive pleasure. Indifference serves as a shield.
This week we've had some good discussions here. Empathy, sympathy and a few good tunes. That's a good way to wrap up the last work week before celebrating the birth of our savior.
There's been some good discussion about the concepts, but I didn't see anyone share their experience with their practical application. What do these things look like in the real world? So, I wanted to share some personal experience as a military leader with you about ways that one can employ empathy to improve just not performance, but the true espirit de corps of your organization.
This is a long post, so bear with me while I set the background and talk about myself a little bit. At one point in my life, I was an enlisted soldier in the U.S. Army that eventually went on to become an officer. During that time, I was awarded the command of a Headquarters Company, which is a notoriously difficult assignment. One of those difficulties is that the soldiers who make up the unit are supply clerks, cooks, admin types, etc. These aren't necessarily bad soldiers, but sometimes they need extra motivation to meet the minimum standards. It's common for them to underperform on the physical fitness test and marksmanship, which are some of the fundamentals of soldiering. To add an extra layer of difficulty this was a reserve unit so, we would only the see the soldiers 2-3 days per month for training. How do you motivate people in this situation to the level that they become physically fit on their own individual effort? That's a question that I had spent quite a bit of time pondering. Since I had been an enlisted soldier for 10 years I could empathize with them and also be sympathetic. It wasn't an abstract exercise or some conceptual model, it was real life experience. Therefore, I knew that their outlook on themselves and where they fit into the whole was the underlying problem. They were not personally bought in because they felt like no one really cared about them as people and they hadn't tasted the sweetness of success. They didn't see themselves as valuable members of the team. The concept here is that if this problem is solved then many of the other problems will take care of themselves.
So, orders were given to every leader from the platoon leaders down to the squad leaders to make a phone call at least twice per month to each of their soldiers. The idea here is to increase involvement on a personal level and to know and understand what's going on in those soldier's lives. We were building cohesiveness. I wanted leaders that cared about their soldiers and got involved in their lives. There was some resistance to this and some 'well, actually...' but in the end it became standard practice. This may have been the most important thing we did.
Another example of something that was successful is one that was empathetic, but not necessarily sympathetic. There's no shortage of excuses for why soldiers fail to meet the minimum physical requirements, and barring a medical problem, very little sympathy was given. By regulation, if a soldier fails 3 consecutive tests with no less than 60 days between each test the soldier is separated from the service. Luckily, a 'diagnostic' fitness test can be given every day, if the commander choses. In this case, it was every month. So, every soldier that did not have a passing physical fitness score was given a diagnostic physical fitness as the first order of business every duty weekend hell or high water. This was to continue until every soldier either passes or finds a different career. This was also met with derision from some, but I had my way. Some of those tested tried things like 'forgetting' their fitness uniform to avoid the effort, but luckily for them there is no prohibition against running in boots. Some examples had to be made. What I personally did for this group was that I maintained a very high level of personnel fitness, and I also took the test with them every month even if it was just one soldier. I pushed them, encouraged them and led them. Once I completed the run, I would double back and run with those that were struggling. I wanted them to know that I cared enough about them to also put myself out there with them rain or shine. Follow me! Eventually, they really want to perform and won't accept less from themselves.
Ultimately, this didn't help me nearly as much as it helped them. Many of them went on to become excellent leaders themselves and some are now senior officers using these methods to inspire other young people.
There's much, much more to this story, and maybe some day it will get written. Thanks for reading.
Merry Christmas
We need more leaders like you. Military leadership is becoming a lost art nowadays and it’s important to have soldiers, the men defending our country, who aren’t quitters.
Hooah! Can confirm.