Commenting on a kid's artwork or asking him what position he plays on a team is not creepy. Stepping in to play a game of basketball with them is. The fact that he can't distinguish between what is normal and appropriate and what violates norms makes me . . . feel very sorry for this individual.
That took courage to open himself up like that to scrutiny from TDL and others. Hope he takes the advice given and adjusts his behavior moving forward.
“everyone should understand that there is a fundamental difference between accepting an invitation and forcing oneself on a group without an invitation.”
I’ve gotten better with this than I used to be.
Two of my adult children and their spouses are close friends. I drive past one of their homes on my way home and see all their cars there, and used to stop by most times.
Eventually I realized that I wasn’t invited and so not welcome.
I stopped stopping by uninvited, and now I get invited more often.
Small lessons learned can have big rewards.
They often want me to help with their babies now (thank you God! ). I’m glad I learned the lesson before the babies were born!
The arrested development is interesting. They never grow through whatever it is they lied to avoid as youths and are stuck still seeking it long past the point healthy men matured.
“You can be positive all you want but deep down people just still know that you are an untrustworthy person.”
The tonic for untrustworthiness is obviously trustworthiness, not positivity. But effecting an attitude is easy. Becoming more virtuous, less so.
It’s draining to constantly have to gauge your behavior to what people will find acceptable. People have a spidey sense of your status, and they don’t want to be familiar with them if you have low status, but if you ignore or avoid them they are also insulted, because they won’t be ignored by someone of low status. Best strategy I think is to interact politely and briefly, maybe be a little bit friendly, but not familiar. If you are low status your goal is not to get people to like you, but to have them not dislike you.
I think gammas tend to overshoot on this, and omegas undershoot. The gamma is an annoying try hard and the omega is a weirdo loner. It’s a narrow line to walk.
Undershoot is a great way to put this. As an omega, the social skills I have acquired seem to succeed. The problem is learning to do the most basic social interactions at all more than being annoying in a typical social setting.
The annoying behavior is more related to trying to move a casual interaction to something more e.g. an intellectual discussion.
This is why Etiquette training for them especially is so important. In this respect the Informalization of social interactions causes them to act out of their depth.
Their natural capacities at gauging unwritten social rules and acting appropriately are just terrible. It must be made explicit once again as in history.
Most especially as a result of Casualization. And loss of etiquette in society in general.
Gammas have it tough in that they are observant, but always inwardly or self-referential. A case of the lense distorting the image.
WRT creepiness or other social demerits, it is possible to evaluate closer to objective. Replace (me, I) and anything you want or think "cool" with a hypothetical:
Saw this firsthand yesterday. Two of my daughters had birthdays this week, so the house was full of late-teen kids.
Their friends generally like us, mainly because we don’t try to be the “cool parents.” I stay out of the way, and they usually enjoy my wife being around a little.
Yesterday was different. With the larger crowd, her presence tilted things. As soon as my older daughter asked her to join me on the patio, the kids relaxed and started having a better time.
maybe could have been clearer. The one who pointed out she might should give some kids some space was one of the older kids (I have 4 daughters), not one of two hosting the party.
My wife wasn't really causing a problem and I don't think the younger two would have even said anything. But it definitely was better once she came outside with me.
This post is bothering me more than it should. The way I see it is that you have a self-described "gamma" debasing himself in a vain attempt at fitting in at the cool kid's table, if only for a moment, and the response is to bully the guy for being the uncool dad that he is. And I don't like to see bullying. I know some of the betas (a bravo is a re-branded beta) will respond with "look at the gamma trying to defend the gamma." And I don't care. But I don't like to see someone bullied and that's what I see in this thread.
Does this make me a "gamma"? I shrug. I do say the thing in groups that the socially-adept know not to say. I speak to strangers which I know is uncool. I sometimes think I would be happier if I could get a job as a lighthouse keeper (there are no openings for the position listed on indeed or monster.com, sadly). Go ahead and judge me. I do not care. Just don't expect me to accept seeing others bullied.
I also don't believe that men can be neatly categorized into one of six or so categories, although I do acknowledge that there are archetypes that surface and recede over the course of events. Well, except for alphas. There are true alphas and we know them when we see them. But other than that, we all are a mixture of these archetypes. Feel free to disagree. Feel free to ignore.
Viewing a straightforward "Here is what you did wrong" as bullying is a behavior that is often associated with women and gammas.
I don't think it's a helpful viewpoint.
Either the critique is correct, in which case you learn from it, or incorrect, in which case you ignore it. Complaining about bullying, especially when it is not present, is just low status tone policing.
Don't attempt to reframe valid criticism as bullying because you don't like the tone. In this particular instance, Vox went out of his way to credit the Dads ruthless honesty. That is not the behavior of a bully.
Interesting that you perceive the responses here as "bullying."
After taking some time and reading through everything, what struck me was how most of the commenters are simply trying to accurately discuss the behavior and how people react to it. Nobody is mocking him or denigrating him, nobody is asking that he be removed, nobody is adding insult to injury. Several are being kind and respectful, even acknowledging how difficult it is to put oneself out there to be discussed in this manner.
It's painful to have others bear witness to our flaws, sometimes excruciatingly so. This does not equate to bullying. Quite the contrary, I suspect most commenters would be delighted to see him change this particular behavior for the better as a result of this conversation.
Any progress worth making in life almost always comes with acceptance of some amount of pain. Sometimes that pain is the result of criticism from others, but this does not mean the pain is the same as that inflicted by bullying. However, reframing the critical comments here as such is a convenient excuse to ignore any of the beneficial observations and suggestions people have to offer.
You always have a choice in how to accept criticism, especially if it seems personal: Is it accurate? If so, then it is an opportunity to make a change. Is it inaccurate or false? Then the critic has no idea what he's talking about, and can be safely ignored, as clearly he is not talking about you.
My dad was also like this: he would talk my friend’s ears off and had all these rules for us that were so over the top that none of my friends wanted to hang out at my house, we’d go elsewhere and he’d get upset about that too. Also an extremely negative guy, can’t seem to find a redeeming quality in anything or anyone apart from himself and can’t admit that he’s wrong although he’ll sermonize about “being a sinner saved by grace.” Probably one of the most tedious men I’ve ever interacted with.
All of our kids are grown now and, thinking back on it, I don’t ever remember a time encountering another man that acted this way with anything our kids were involved in with their friends. There were several instances of women with daughters behaving this way, and inviting themselves in to their daughter’s social lives and making a complete mess out of it.
I barely interacted with my kid’s friends at all and was surprised when, years later, my daughter said that many of her girlfriends had a crush on me when she was in high school. Thankfully, I had no idea about any of it but apparently it was very embarrassing for her.
Thanks for sharing this with everyone, I chuckled at how accurate your account of still being able to play.
In my 30s still doing beer league hockey vs 20-40 yr olds since college age and we have a 54 year old guy who's been on the squad since before me. He's in great shape and despite slower reflexes hockey knowledge shows. He also has to skate at 5am two other days a week to be able to compete in our current league at all. (also an oil rig worker across world- what I'm trying to say is badass mofo) Stuff like that shows up and gives mad respect for guys like that in leagues of athletic guys in peak ages.
Dunking on 13 year olds - wild to think how Gammas view that in the same light. Very interesting to see this perspective.
"...the average Gamma’s emotional pain is self-inflicted by his refusal, or inability, to respect the bounds of what is socially appropriate in a given moment.'
A brilliant and succinct explanation – everything from this dad to Harold "Race" Scrubb.
Guys need to remember and adhere to what the female advice of, "Just be yourself" actually means.
It means don't make affectations to things that you don't normally do and act artificially. That if you don't regularly play ball with your son, you're being out of character. Artificial. This try hard attitude is WAY more noticeable than the average Gamma realizes.
So apply this to your whole life. Not just with the children, but at work, at social gatherings, etc. If you don't do something normally, with positive reinforcement from others, just stop. Think about what you're doing, and if it's acceptable.
There's nothing wrong with -trying- to gain skills you don't have, such as socializing with others. Just realize you're GOING TO BE BAD AND FAIL at first. As such, only do so in situations where it either doesn't matter what the outcome is (Low stakes socializing with people you're never going to meet again) or in places you literally can't avoid it (job reviews, meetings, weddings, etc) - but in the latter you should practice low risk behavior and not attempt to train new skills, but simply perform adequately on ones you already have.
Commenting on a kid's artwork or asking him what position he plays on a team is not creepy. Stepping in to play a game of basketball with them is. The fact that he can't distinguish between what is normal and appropriate and what violates norms makes me . . . feel very sorry for this individual.
"1st gamma comment: im a loser and it hurts."
Ah man that sucks but at least you're kinda aware of some of the stuff even if you're stuck in your moping.
"2nd gamma comment: hello fellow kids, I was quite the baller back in my day! How about them packers? (I <3 ur art!!)"
Haha oh wow
That took courage to open himself up like that to scrutiny from TDL and others. Hope he takes the advice given and adjusts his behavior moving forward.
“everyone should understand that there is a fundamental difference between accepting an invitation and forcing oneself on a group without an invitation.”
I’ve gotten better with this than I used to be.
Two of my adult children and their spouses are close friends. I drive past one of their homes on my way home and see all their cars there, and used to stop by most times.
Eventually I realized that I wasn’t invited and so not welcome.
I stopped stopping by uninvited, and now I get invited more often.
Small lessons learned can have big rewards.
They often want me to help with their babies now (thank you God! ). I’m glad I learned the lesson before the babies were born!
You are being a bit hard on yourself, but I'm glad it all worked out
The arrested development is interesting. They never grow through whatever it is they lied to avoid as youths and are stuck still seeking it long past the point healthy men matured.
“You can be positive all you want but deep down people just still know that you are an untrustworthy person.”
The tonic for untrustworthiness is obviously trustworthiness, not positivity. But effecting an attitude is easy. Becoming more virtuous, less so.
It’s draining to constantly have to gauge your behavior to what people will find acceptable. People have a spidey sense of your status, and they don’t want to be familiar with them if you have low status, but if you ignore or avoid them they are also insulted, because they won’t be ignored by someone of low status. Best strategy I think is to interact politely and briefly, maybe be a little bit friendly, but not familiar. If you are low status your goal is not to get people to like you, but to have them not dislike you.
I think gammas tend to overshoot on this, and omegas undershoot. The gamma is an annoying try hard and the omega is a weirdo loner. It’s a narrow line to walk.
Undershoot is a great way to put this. As an omega, the social skills I have acquired seem to succeed. The problem is learning to do the most basic social interactions at all more than being annoying in a typical social setting.
The annoying behavior is more related to trying to move a casual interaction to something more e.g. an intellectual discussion.
This is why Etiquette training for them especially is so important. In this respect the Informalization of social interactions causes them to act out of their depth.
Their natural capacities at gauging unwritten social rules and acting appropriately are just terrible. It must be made explicit once again as in history.
Most especially as a result of Casualization. And loss of etiquette in society in general.
Gammas have it tough in that they are observant, but always inwardly or self-referential. A case of the lense distorting the image.
WRT creepiness or other social demerits, it is possible to evaluate closer to objective. Replace (me, I) and anything you want or think "cool" with a hypothetical:
*This absolute rando approached (target) unsolicited and...*
Saw this firsthand yesterday. Two of my daughters had birthdays this week, so the house was full of late-teen kids.
Their friends generally like us, mainly because we don’t try to be the “cool parents.” I stay out of the way, and they usually enjoy my wife being around a little.
Yesterday was different. With the larger crowd, her presence tilted things. As soon as my older daughter asked her to join me on the patio, the kids relaxed and started having a better time.
> As soon as my older daughter asked her to join me on the patio
Meaning the party was inside the house and your wife was being asked to leave?
maybe could have been clearer. The one who pointed out she might should give some kids some space was one of the older kids (I have 4 daughters), not one of two hosting the party.
My wife wasn't really causing a problem and I don't think the younger two would have even said anything. But it definitely was better once she came outside with me.
This post is bothering me more than it should. The way I see it is that you have a self-described "gamma" debasing himself in a vain attempt at fitting in at the cool kid's table, if only for a moment, and the response is to bully the guy for being the uncool dad that he is. And I don't like to see bullying. I know some of the betas (a bravo is a re-branded beta) will respond with "look at the gamma trying to defend the gamma." And I don't care. But I don't like to see someone bullied and that's what I see in this thread.
Does this make me a "gamma"? I shrug. I do say the thing in groups that the socially-adept know not to say. I speak to strangers which I know is uncool. I sometimes think I would be happier if I could get a job as a lighthouse keeper (there are no openings for the position listed on indeed or monster.com, sadly). Go ahead and judge me. I do not care. Just don't expect me to accept seeing others bullied.
I also don't believe that men can be neatly categorized into one of six or so categories, although I do acknowledge that there are archetypes that surface and recede over the course of events. Well, except for alphas. There are true alphas and we know them when we see them. But other than that, we all are a mixture of these archetypes. Feel free to disagree. Feel free to ignore.
No. You have to stop making everything you encounter about you.
Yes. If you reject the hierarchy you are a gamma.
Viewing a straightforward "Here is what you did wrong" as bullying is a behavior that is often associated with women and gammas.
I don't think it's a helpful viewpoint.
Either the critique is correct, in which case you learn from it, or incorrect, in which case you ignore it. Complaining about bullying, especially when it is not present, is just low status tone policing.
Don't attempt to reframe valid criticism as bullying because you don't like the tone. In this particular instance, Vox went out of his way to credit the Dads ruthless honesty. That is not the behavior of a bully.
Interesting that you perceive the responses here as "bullying."
After taking some time and reading through everything, what struck me was how most of the commenters are simply trying to accurately discuss the behavior and how people react to it. Nobody is mocking him or denigrating him, nobody is asking that he be removed, nobody is adding insult to injury. Several are being kind and respectful, even acknowledging how difficult it is to put oneself out there to be discussed in this manner.
It's painful to have others bear witness to our flaws, sometimes excruciatingly so. This does not equate to bullying. Quite the contrary, I suspect most commenters would be delighted to see him change this particular behavior for the better as a result of this conversation.
Any progress worth making in life almost always comes with acceptance of some amount of pain. Sometimes that pain is the result of criticism from others, but this does not mean the pain is the same as that inflicted by bullying. However, reframing the critical comments here as such is a convenient excuse to ignore any of the beneficial observations and suggestions people have to offer.
You always have a choice in how to accept criticism, especially if it seems personal: Is it accurate? If so, then it is an opportunity to make a change. Is it inaccurate or false? Then the critic has no idea what he's talking about, and can be safely ignored, as clearly he is not talking about you.
My dad was also like this: he would talk my friend’s ears off and had all these rules for us that were so over the top that none of my friends wanted to hang out at my house, we’d go elsewhere and he’d get upset about that too. Also an extremely negative guy, can’t seem to find a redeeming quality in anything or anyone apart from himself and can’t admit that he’s wrong although he’ll sermonize about “being a sinner saved by grace.” Probably one of the most tedious men I’ve ever interacted with.
All of our kids are grown now and, thinking back on it, I don’t ever remember a time encountering another man that acted this way with anything our kids were involved in with their friends. There were several instances of women with daughters behaving this way, and inviting themselves in to their daughter’s social lives and making a complete mess out of it.
I barely interacted with my kid’s friends at all and was surprised when, years later, my daughter said that many of her girlfriends had a crush on me when she was in high school. Thankfully, I had no idea about any of it but apparently it was very embarrassing for her.
Women and Gammas do share a lot of traits, after all.
Probably the whole "he's a mystery" thing.
You're referring to the having a crush thing, right? May have more to do with JW being an obvious alpha.
Thanks for sharing this with everyone, I chuckled at how accurate your account of still being able to play.
In my 30s still doing beer league hockey vs 20-40 yr olds since college age and we have a 54 year old guy who's been on the squad since before me. He's in great shape and despite slower reflexes hockey knowledge shows. He also has to skate at 5am two other days a week to be able to compete in our current league at all. (also an oil rig worker across world- what I'm trying to say is badass mofo) Stuff like that shows up and gives mad respect for guys like that in leagues of athletic guys in peak ages.
Dunking on 13 year olds - wild to think how Gammas view that in the same light. Very interesting to see this perspective.
"...the average Gamma’s emotional pain is self-inflicted by his refusal, or inability, to respect the bounds of what is socially appropriate in a given moment.'
A brilliant and succinct explanation – everything from this dad to Harold "Race" Scrubb.
It's amazing to me how a lot of people just have no chill.
He’s stuck in a mental hall of mirrors.
Guys need to remember and adhere to what the female advice of, "Just be yourself" actually means.
It means don't make affectations to things that you don't normally do and act artificially. That if you don't regularly play ball with your son, you're being out of character. Artificial. This try hard attitude is WAY more noticeable than the average Gamma realizes.
So apply this to your whole life. Not just with the children, but at work, at social gatherings, etc. If you don't do something normally, with positive reinforcement from others, just stop. Think about what you're doing, and if it's acceptable.
There's nothing wrong with -trying- to gain skills you don't have, such as socializing with others. Just realize you're GOING TO BE BAD AND FAIL at first. As such, only do so in situations where it either doesn't matter what the outcome is (Low stakes socializing with people you're never going to meet again) or in places you literally can't avoid it (job reviews, meetings, weddings, etc) - but in the latter you should practice low risk behavior and not attempt to train new skills, but simply perform adequately on ones you already have.