College really is a sneaky swan song in some ways. Graduation is presented as “starting your life”, but it’s the the age point where male and female SMVs actually really start to diverge. Male uncaring about female material success indicators is the nitrous injection.
Profiles gonna profile. But not pedestalizing roasties would be a gift to humanity.
"a pretty female friend can be the best wingman you can possibly imagine. There is no higher social proof for a man than a very hot woman who is genuinely and openly fond of him."
1000 times yes. Having a woman who's rejected you but likes you makes things really easy. Most extreme case was with an ex who doubled as my best wingman of all time. Even invited me to her wedding where I got dates left and right.
And of course hot women tend to flock together. A dime who's rejected you can get you on her hot friends' radar. She's possibly the best asset for a man looking for a bride. If within your circles you get team women on your side, pre-selection works hard in your favor.
One aspect she failed to note is that in the early years everyone she knows is single. As couple pair off, especially those that get married their social life tends to move to like, shared interests, e.g., other couples. So then there are two groups; singles and married. Then when kids come along, the married with kids tend to associate. So then there are three groupings that have different worlds; singles, couples, couples with kids. The singles with kids tend to bounce between the three, circumstance driven. She failed to listen to her body and biology rules
"a pretty female friend can be the best wingman you can possibly imagine"
I unintentionally managed to get my first long term girlfriend after a failed attempt to date a different woman. I blew it with the first woman in a way that she didn't hate me, but I was never going to be seen as a romantic interest. The second woman had good chemistry with me, but there was quite an age gap between us.
So I asked the second woman out and she had to think about it. A few days later we're at a gathering and she tells me that she's decided against the relationship. I was understanding given the optics. About 15 minutes later the first woman comes into the room and does nothing more than greet me with a smile and exchange pleasantries. The woman who had just turned me down immediately changed her mind.
Got my wife of 47 years via a pretty female friend. She would bring her to our parties and that's is how we met.
Even now, I would suggest that a female friend is a great person to connect one with another. The female match makers are a pretty universal phenomenon.
If I were single again (not planning or hoping for that) I have a married female friend that would and could definitely set me up with some interesting opportunities. Nice to have options!
Female matrix - I was clueless about it, kind of saw hints of its existence. Really saw it for the first time with my daughters and their friends. Still don’t get it, acknowledge that it exists like the SSH does. Maybe Vox can ask Spacebunny to document the Female Matrix for the men.
If you want a woman to give it to you straight, then it has to be when she is frustrated with your inability to get it. When she despises you and doesn't fear you. Every other woman is indirect.
I've got a 19 year old niece in Mexico from my wife's side of the family. She just finished her first year of college and she's still got her boyfriend from high school hanging around. He's not very serious about her and doesn't do any of the public signs that they are together like posting photos of them together on his Instagram. He's probably also cheating on the relationship with girls from his university.
A couple of days ago my wife and I were at my parents' house and we got chatting and this subject came up. My wife and I were talking about how when we go to Mexico next month my wife is going to give her niece some encouragement to get rid of this chump and find a better guy.
My mom's inner boomer Berkeley feminist who she ususally controls pretty well managed to get out and my mom said, "Why does she even need to get a guy? She should just concentrate on going to college and getting a job." I then pointed out that my niece's best years to find a guy are from 18 to 30 and my niece can't afford to just throw a way 1/3 of her best chance to find a good man.
My niece really looks up to my wife and I think that my wife's encouragement will go over good enough to get my niece to go find a better guy.
Travelling is overrated. There's usually power lines in the view. And what's up with whichever hotel manager trainer decided that the staff should presumably just after cleaning the heads go around and touch and fold over every tissue in the room into some kind of triangle shape?
"I've made a life for myself with no real support and kinda fending for myself out here in the real world"
Why, that sounds perfectly wretched! Every good thing I have in my life is a gift of God manifested through my family.
My parents continue to support me with advice and encouragement. My in-laws point me in the direction of opportunities I'm not seeing. My siblings share their victories and their struggles with me, as I do with them. My wife is my right hand and my greatest defender, and my children are my delight. And I am further blessed with grandparents, cousins, uncles, and aunts so numerous that I can't even name them all!
I describe it as such on occasion to unmarried women friends of my wife's. There is a soul-deep longing they work hard to conceal, but they eyes don't lie.
The point is that she didn't do any wrong. The girls who date the hot, smart, confident boys, might need to occasionally admit that he was right and she was wrong.
Looking at the guys and girls who do date, all of them can sublimate their views for a while. They're able to say when they're wrong and who is more right than they are. Dumb guys in engineering and loud feminists rarely shut up for long enough of a duration.
"Ironically, one of the few ways men and women can have a true and honest friendship is if the man openly pursues the woman, is definitively rejected, but genuinely accepts the rejection as well as friendship in lieu of a relationship."
This is how I got my best friend. Big emphasis on the genuinely accepting the rejection part.
Were pretty open and straightforward and we flirted around for a short bit. And we talked through pretty much everything, her life and mine as both of us at the time were nursing some sorrows. And I was transparent about liking her right out the gate.
After about 2 or three undramatic rejections over like 3 months. And knowing and seeing her decisiveness with people. That door was closed for me. But I felt pretty peaceful. And I love chatting with her and hearing her stories. So it naturally changed to that.
I think two things were really clear to me then. That if I played some friendzone game I was lost. Either I decieve her which she isn't tolerant of. Or i decieve myself which I'm not tolerant of given our open friendship thus far.
And that I didn't feel to. I really was at peace with that path and tried my best. What exactly was I losing out on? The best part was what we were already enjoying.
It is a bit tricky for others to get though. My wife was understandably a skeptic till she met her and now they are friends.
Anyways I need to testify to the importance of the thorough rejection and the thorough acceptance. Not a clean enough rejection and as a man you can tell yourself "let's see if there is another way" and you might not be wrong. Not full acceptance and you transition to the friendzone or exit the friendship.
I salute you but your way is not the way most dudes deal with rejection. Best general advice is to move on and try with other woman. Sometimes guys can’t recognize the friend zone, even when in it.
I don't think either of you fully get it. Though both of you touch on some truth.
For me this is the first time any blogger/ writer spoke directly to this dynamic and reality.
I wish it were more common so there would be some easily recognized way of separating it from the friend zone or orbiting. I have done both in youth and it's neither.
It's also not as straightforward as a friendship because male female dynamics do not just vanish by fiat. Far less if you admire and genuinely get along with them. At the same time, they don't have undue authority either. It takes some navigating.
The only simple way to explain it is I am very happy with the outcome. And it was more of a surprise to me than anyone.
I'm married and she has a fiance now so iv long ruled out the ordinary explanations.
Funny that this comes up today. Lately I've seen multiple posts or articles stating all the 'benefits' of having kids after 40, how mums are more likely to live past 100 or be taken care of by their kids, whatever.
The cope is hard and they'll keep on saying whatever they need to justify the poor decisions they made. It's as if all these women don't realize that the most famous woman on earth was famous because she was the *mother* of God.
I wouldn't suggest this is the best strategy for women but the amount of women I've known who have had kids after 35 is "most of them" My wife and I are going to try for one more and we're both 40+
And how old were those women when they had their *first* child? You're looking to have more, which means you already had at least one. Having a first child is a lot harder than having a fifth for some reason.
Mostly early 30s. My wife popped out 3 between 35-40. First at 35. 30 is not too old to get your act together. I wish we started sooner but we didn't meet till 33. I absolutely 100% recommend starting younger than we did but life isn't over if you don't. And guys who think dating in your 30's is fun, I have news for you, yes, it's better than dating in your twenties if you're dorky you can grow out of it but it still 100% sucks and favors women.
Nuber of sexual partners and history of hormonal poison birth control has an impact in many cases. Virgins without a history of h.b.c. use seem to do ok in my experience.
Sometimes girls pretend to be obtuse because they're trained in a translation of what it means to display humility and modesty. You get that a lot with church girls, the deep country protestant variants are exceptionally bad about this, see also, the denim skirt brigade, snake handlers, CoG and apostolic variants, etc.
Even in relatively mainstream protestant evangelical circles, it was "sinful" to acknowledge your beauty, sexuality, and see the male interest in you as good or okay. Depending on the volatility of the father, some girls would be terrifed or just ashamed of any male attention for fear they'd be branded a whore.
It's not really like that anymore but since the article references women approaching my age the 1990s early 2000s purity push fits some of their early life experiences. I've personally known a LOT of these girls. Freshman year of college blew their minds.
Normal girls in the normal world pretend to be obtuse because they're not interested in anything more than friendship and they don't want to blow up what they have. We (almost) always know. Deltas make the absolute best friends ever, they're safe. Who doesn't want a safe reliable man friend? Since they never (or rarely) make a solid move they'll stay in your orbit for years. Since they're never forthright you can just pretend to not notice they're "kind of sort of asking you not quite out but something something just the two of you his treat" and they won't press it if you don't bite.
I ran with a whole crew of guys throughout college and my 30s and would wingman for quite a few of them. I swear I had a better time getting girls than they did. I did the whole giggly compliments and girl talk combo and invited them to our pool table. Share a pitcher. Ask all the questions. Engineers and grad students in general were a funny sort of person. They're so brilliant, generally cute, literally can do anything, and in their areas can speak with confidence and strength, yet with social situations, getting girls, they're all bumbly and awkward. Personally I find it kind of adorable.
Unfortunately most ladies don't find that charming or adorable. They usually find it weak and pathetic and my guy, you will not get her number. Normal women want strength. They want confidence and courage. Read Vox, learn something. Be as confident and sure with her as you are complex mathematics. Take command. Make decisions.
Some girls are truly unable to read the room, but that's moving into spectrum territory and quite frankly, I have observed that they make a better pairing for a lot of brainier deltas but that's a topic for another day.
As to the gal in the article, she, like so many others , seems to have forgotten she was PRETENDING to not notice. It's amazing how quickly people rewrite history to make themselves look better and to avoid taking responsibility. Mirrors are kryptonite.
They never see the wall coming.
They have all the time in the world until they don't.
Then they lie about it. Make excuses. Have a midlife crisis. Cry. Blame. Deny. They won't admit that they were too full of themselves, were hoping to catch a man too far out of their league especially given their behavior/career choices. No honey, you aren't going to be a 35 year old boss babe AND marry a Tom Cruise. This isn't a Hallmark Christmas movie.
There's a Hypergamouse comic about this. The one where Kate was speed dating and the one where she whips out her credit card to pay for the date. Girl, just stop it.
Sounds like some of the girls I hung out with at college. My engineering class was pretty close, and we had an unwritten rule about not dating each out. So the lady engineers would go snag others for their friends.
I’m one of those that grew up in a detrimental purity culture, now at 29, a single virgin and paying a heavy price for what I was brainwashed into believing was virtuous and pleasing to God.
I’ve tried the best I know how to do, I’ve said yes to pretty much every date I’ve been asked on, mostly with guys I wasn’t really attracted to, and tried to make it work, like really tried! Like I’ll dress up, give him 2+ hours of undivided atten, ask lots of questions about him/his life, laugh at all his jokes/crack my own jokes, give words of encouragement and positivity and thank him for his time (+generosity if he paid). Really trying to bring out the very best in him.
By date 3 he’s antsy to hop into bed and comfortable enough to be babytalking, tell “lovers lies” (ie. you’re the most beautiful), and mentioning marriage.
While I feel like I barely know the guy. I just don’t know how to become attached to someone enough to sleep with him, less choose him as a life partner, when I’ve spent less time with him than the first day on a new job.
And I’m 100% guilty of shutting it down cause I thought he should find someone attracted to him and I don’t know how to become attracted to him
Anyway, prime example of how it truly is a game of players/sluts now. If you’re average, no other mating strategy works.
There's a special kind of hell for churches who promote female celibacy disguising it as a virtue, whether in the obvious "nuns in a convent" way or the less obvious "misunderstood purity" way like yours.
I pretty much bypassed all the usual dating stuff by marrying my college sweetheart and doing things pretty much in the opposite order that I hope for my kids, so take this suggestion for what it's worth (also, I don't know your specific circumstances or dating process, so if you've already done this my apologies in advance):
Maybe the process of dating is itself the issue? Might it be more effective to put yourself in situations where you spend time interacting with eligible men in a way that you get to know them without the pressure of getting into bed on the third meeting?
Suggestions would be any kind of co-ed hobby or activity that meets at least a couple of times a month. A class at a local community college, a sport, volunteering... essentially something that gives you an opportunity to get to know people who already have similar interests and see how they interact with yourself and others. Sometimes this gives a chance to know people more deeply than you would on a date.
Also, I agree with the commenter who said that if there's someone you have a crush on, you should try for it. Ask him out or just put yourself in his vicinity where he is more likely to interact with you regularly. Worst that can happen is he says no. Having done that a couple of times before I met Mr. C, yes, it's terrifying to put yourself out there, but ultimately it also saves a lot of time you'd otherwise waste longing for Mr. Right-for-Someone-Else. It's a lot easier to move on when you know for a fact it isn't happening, and if he's a jerk about it so much the better - you'll get over him instantly.
That’s really good advice, I could definitely do more as far as putting myself out there.
I guess my concern is that I’m so hung up on getting it right the first time, that it’s self sabotaging.
I mean, if a man is kind and decently competent and mostly healthy, shouldn’t I feel inspired to sleep with him? Maybe I cracked down on my libido so hard that it’s not responding properly.
I feel bad asking them to wait a month or more when they’re pretty much ready after the first date. Especially when what they’re getting isn’t even exceptional.
But yeah either way, the best solution is probably to meet in a non explicitly romantic context
Libido is a tricky issue. Meeting Mr. Right probably won't work out so well if you don't actually want to be touched, and sometimes we don't want to be touched by anyone.
That said, often what we think is lack of interest is actually lack of the right hormonal balance, unhelpful medications, or even anemia if your iron levels are low. Exercise often helps in that regard, and it's never a bad thing to learn your body's cues at different times in your cycle. Assuming you aren't taking hormonal birth control, around ovulation you should be feeling a lot more... interested... in just the idea of engaging in relations with someone.
Finding a good book to read may also help get your mind and body more interested in certain activities, though of course ymmv.
I actually love dancing! The church I was raised in was very strict, and we had the cheeky phrase “We don’t allow premarital sex cause it might lead to dancing!”
I recognize that saying from the church who pretended it wasn't a church I grew up in. Was the phrase used to bully the anti dance minority? Are you Norwegian?
Yes, I wish I had thought of that. Totally agree as well about interacting with opposite-sex partners who are way older. I never danced, but most of the activities I did were with retirees. Great people, and had I been single I'm sure a lot of them had grandkids they would have been looking to introduce to a nice girl.
We were doing what the preachers taught, what all of "decent Christian society" said, what the elders said. Sex before marriage is sin, men want virgins, girls guard your purity.
The 90s were a morally bankrupt cesspool of limited dating opportunities. Has it gotten even worse?? Hard to imagine. It's sad.
For all the losers who simp for dirtbags like Tate. You can't cry about body counts while racking up your own body counts. The hypocrisy is a joke. Be a slut so a guy will date you! Oh, I'm not marrying the likes of you...you have a body count. Jezebel! Whore!
I quit dating in my 20s. It was a waste of time. The ONE guy who didn't try to get in my pants was an atheist. Seriously. An atheist. I tried missionary dating but that was a bad idea. Obviously didn't work. He didn't want to come to church with me so we we ended things.
Men were great as friends and I had a fantastic crew of great friends to hang out with, I didn't hate men, but dating was an absolute drag. 20somethings just wanted to play around, fuck, and focus on school and later career goals. They weren't serious people. I was probably too serious in my 20s and would have done well to date 30 somethings but eww...they were OLD.
I got a decent job with a pension, bought a house, and joined clubs, was active at church, and enjoyed my life without the drama and nonsense most men brought to the table.
So no, I don't have any regrets marrying late. I fully believe that I was in obedience to Scripture at the time and that I made the best choices with what knowledge I had available.
Also, I was FULLY aware that guys date around for cheap sex and marry later when they're ready to settle down. My dad and mom both warned me about that and I'm glad I listened. When some too-hot (to be hitting on me) guy comes fluttering around spouting a bunch of bullshit I knew better. I am not a fool.
So to those kinds of guys, fuck all of you.
To all these tail chasers. You're whoremongers and you destroy virtue. You're obsessed with sex. You're horny, selfish liars, immature, thieves of what's not yours. You lack self control. You lack class. You're arrogant deceivers. You use people then shame them for being used.
Best yet, I beat you. I beat all of you. I didn't fall for your lies or your petty attempts at flattery. I dumped your pathetic loser asses the minute it was obvious what you really wanted. Find another chump. I ain't your girl.
Am I bitter? Hell no. In my youth I was angry, I felt that God was cursing me for my obedience, but I persevered. I got the best reward for my chastity, my patience, and my wisdom. At 33 I married an amazing human being, a worthy, pure, honest man after God's own heart. I have everything I could have ever wanted in life. I have two beautiful children. My man was absolutely worth the wait. I was pregnant at 40 and it was easy. First try. I still had eggs.
You're 29. You absolutely can find love and I'll pray for the Lord to bless you with a good one. Don't lose hope.
"For all the losers who simp for dirtbags like Tate. You can't cry about body counts while racking up your own body counts. The hypocrisy is a joke."
A common complaint in the men's discussions is women who lump together the sexual winners with the sexual losers. Most of the people women consider 'losers' are absolutely not 'racking up' their own body counts. Among young men like 30% haven't had sex in a year or more, if ever. The reason the men who get lots of sex are getting lots of sex is women considering them 'winners' and then becoming bitter that they didn't get commitment.
Lastly, how are men supposed to get women at all if they don't chase tail? The reason the 30% incel men don't have anything is in large part because they have given up on chasing tail and are demoralized by comments like this harping on the evil of men going after women. They chose to believe comments like this one, to their own detriment. You won't reward them and no other woman will. The complete failure of Bumble shows that women are too lazy or scared to even send 'hi' to a man they're interested in.
Bless your heart. All of the stuff right wing podcast bros say sounds the same. They're all interchangeable talking heads. I just pulled a name out of the hat.
Vox is literally the only one that has something better to say and is worth reading. He's a needle in a haystack.
I did have contempt for it. I viewed men as lacking in self control and integrity. I consistently felt lied to and that they were just trying to use me. Of course I quit dating. Now I have a daughter to worry about for all the same reasons. I want her to be a virtuous wife and have good prospects.
I know I wasn't in their league. That's my whole point! I am plenty nice but definitely plain. Cute, not pretty. I've never been pretty. I can drive a tractor and haul 500 bales of hay into a loft but I'm not much to look at. And no at 23 I didn't want to date someone way older. At close to 50 I wouldn't want to date a 70 year old. That's natural. I wanted someone my own age, my own faith, my own culture. A real life partner. So I chose to wait around for Mr. G to finish his doctorate. He was all the right kinds of nerdy. We're on equal levels of weirdness. It's a good vibe.
Bitterness? No. It's anger at the culture of using and tossing of girls who would otherwise have been low count wives for better suited men. I knew plenty of gullible girls who monkeybranched away from solid guys to the obviously too hot for them guys, slept with the guy, "he says he loves me" and then get ditched for a hotter babe later on. They didn't listen to me. I warned them. And they cried bitter sad tears. They just kept upping their body counts doing this delusional nonsense. They ended up worse off. I used to be a counselor. I've sat through a lot of sessions about this stuff with sad broken girls. People do stupid stuff and it's fully on the girls to guard themselves and choose wisely. Guys aren't going to do it.
And I did win. How you can't see that is beyond me. My husband would never have married me if I was just another cast off who'd been run through by every fake nice guy with a cheesy pick up line. If I'd gone out into the world thinking these too hot for me guys were at all honorable or serious in their intentions, if I'd slept with even one of them, I'd have ended up in the absolute gutter, if I ended up a single mother I'd be disowned by my whole family. So no. I was smarter and played the long game and most certainly won. More than won. I was blessed beyond measure. And I do feel a little sniggering sense of vindictiveness about it. Like I said, fuck em. I spent over a decade being mocked as a prude. Now I have a beautiful gift. It's my reward.
I know y'all mean well but this stuff really does flare my temper.
I'd absolutely love to see folks married off to all their corresponding best fit numbers and be happy and make a million babies. I wish people weren't so hung up on money and status and found simple satisfaction in a life with solid deltas. They're so wonderful to be around. Especially the engineers. They can fix anything.
Lastly, until I hear my pastor declare the scriptures now say premarital sex is on the table I'm going to have to stick with what I know and have been taught all my life. I have to obey God and scripture as best as I possibly can.
You read the environment correctly. The dating/mating game as it is currently played in the west is too much like a casino. I am not a gambler, know some who enjoy it. I understand statistics behind the games. Whenever I enter a casino and see all the glitter and flashy stuff, some very high end at some levels, I just look around at the people and tell myself; this beautiful place is paid for by those who failed basic math and statistics. These losers, even if they are having fun are going to lose. There may be one in a million who win big, but the whales who lose big more than cover for that. The dating mating game is best played outside the casino.
“Looking for love means you’re not looking for Christ”
It kinda hurts that the leaders didn’t even practice what they preached. Pretty much all the fornicators I know have happy relationships/marriages, and the one virgin married-at-20 couple who did things “right” is now divorced a decade later.
The pill is what really changed the game and brought out the worst in all of us.
Average girls have to put out just to compete, and average men feel inadequate that they don’t have a “high score”
It’s not that I think I’m more valuable than them, I actively avoid men I have crushes on because I know that I’m beneath them.
It’s the purity culture for me, the idea that any sexual encounter with a man who isn’t my husband makes me irredeemably damaged. My system is set to ‘make the right choice’ not ‘pick one and hit the sack til you get attached’
I’m not sure how to remedy the situation either, other than keep trying and fail faster.
Look for a theonomist you find attractive. Your virginity combined with your purity instincts are probably a huge selling point to him. He gets to date a virgin who he can trust won't try to have sex with him so she can use Biblical law (Exodus 22:16-17) to force him to marry her before he knows she would make a good wife for him.
"Gammas for Christ." That's the first time I've seen that phrase, and it got a full covfefe snort from me.
I had primarily attributed just lunatic neo-marxism (with attendant admixtures of Satanism) to a lot of the glitter churches popping up. Considering then in terms of Gamma SSH co-opting/convergence offers additional, useful context.
Beauty is a huge plus, there’s probably hope for her! She can likely snag someone she’s attracted to
I will say that alcohol definitely helps that internal shame/disgust response to male appraisal. All it would take is a night of drinks with a guy who is as attractive as she is
Club 5 would do well to have dating socials and leave the delusions out of it.
This was 20 years ago now. Anyway. I knew a guy from church. Mid 40s. Kind of awkward. Not good looking but not horrible either. Crummy but stable job. A sweet girl at church crushed on him so hard. She was late 30s. A little heavy. They were in the same league. They'd have been perfect for each other right? No, he was chasing the 20something hotties. My guy, no... just no. You could have been so happy. That sweet girl would have doted on him.
Same girl later married. They're happy little doughballs together and even managed one child. Guy is still single, now in his 60s. Chasing 20something hotties.
Looks fade. There's so much more to life than nicely assembled face parts.
The second picture in combination with the caption is some serious comedy.
That last picture…
College really is a sneaky swan song in some ways. Graduation is presented as “starting your life”, but it’s the the age point where male and female SMVs actually really start to diverge. Male uncaring about female material success indicators is the nitrous injection.
Profiles gonna profile. But not pedestalizing roasties would be a gift to humanity.
"They both remember when she was out of his league."
Damn dude
"a pretty female friend can be the best wingman you can possibly imagine. There is no higher social proof for a man than a very hot woman who is genuinely and openly fond of him."
1000 times yes. Having a woman who's rejected you but likes you makes things really easy. Most extreme case was with an ex who doubled as my best wingman of all time. Even invited me to her wedding where I got dates left and right.
And of course hot women tend to flock together. A dime who's rejected you can get you on her hot friends' radar. She's possibly the best asset for a man looking for a bride. If within your circles you get team women on your side, pre-selection works hard in your favor.
"hyper focused on my new job" likely = elbowing all the other dames out of the way and down a peg or two if possible.
One aspect she failed to note is that in the early years everyone she knows is single. As couple pair off, especially those that get married their social life tends to move to like, shared interests, e.g., other couples. So then there are two groups; singles and married. Then when kids come along, the married with kids tend to associate. So then there are three groupings that have different worlds; singles, couples, couples with kids. The singles with kids tend to bounce between the three, circumstance driven. She failed to listen to her body and biology rules
"They both remember when she was out of his league." It's only May, but that's got to be the SSH Meme of the Year.
"a pretty female friend can be the best wingman you can possibly imagine"
I unintentionally managed to get my first long term girlfriend after a failed attempt to date a different woman. I blew it with the first woman in a way that she didn't hate me, but I was never going to be seen as a romantic interest. The second woman had good chemistry with me, but there was quite an age gap between us.
So I asked the second woman out and she had to think about it. A few days later we're at a gathering and she tells me that she's decided against the relationship. I was understanding given the optics. About 15 minutes later the first woman comes into the room and does nothing more than greet me with a smile and exchange pleasantries. The woman who had just turned me down immediately changed her mind.
Got my wife of 47 years via a pretty female friend. She would bring her to our parties and that's is how we met.
Even now, I would suggest that a female friend is a great person to connect one with another. The female match makers are a pretty universal phenomenon.
If I were single again (not planning or hoping for that) I have a married female friend that would and could definitely set me up with some interesting opportunities. Nice to have options!
Female matrix working as it should. It is invisible to men until and unless they need it.
Female matrix - I was clueless about it, kind of saw hints of its existence. Really saw it for the first time with my daughters and their friends. Still don’t get it, acknowledge that it exists like the SSH does. Maybe Vox can ask Spacebunny to document the Female Matrix for the men.
If she wants better prospects, maybe she should try not passive aggressively phrasing her opinions as questions?
If you want a woman to give it to you straight, then it has to be when she is frustrated with your inability to get it. When she despises you and doesn't fear you. Every other woman is indirect.
Who was her intended audience when she wrote that?
She's incorporating up talk into written word to shift the consequences of her own actions onto the people giving her advice.
How does that bode for her relationship prospects?
She's a woman. She doesn't want to solve her problem, she wants to talk about it.
And she didn't do anything wrong!
Linking discussions for convenience.
https://social.infogalactic.com/micropost/298e9cf0-9504-4613-8a6d-1da4120a51c8
Her external options are dwindling at 30, and she knows this. Her imagination and reality are beginning to overlap, leading to cognitive dissonance.
I've got a 19 year old niece in Mexico from my wife's side of the family. She just finished her first year of college and she's still got her boyfriend from high school hanging around. He's not very serious about her and doesn't do any of the public signs that they are together like posting photos of them together on his Instagram. He's probably also cheating on the relationship with girls from his university.
A couple of days ago my wife and I were at my parents' house and we got chatting and this subject came up. My wife and I were talking about how when we go to Mexico next month my wife is going to give her niece some encouragement to get rid of this chump and find a better guy.
My mom's inner boomer Berkeley feminist who she ususally controls pretty well managed to get out and my mom said, "Why does she even need to get a guy? She should just concentrate on going to college and getting a job." I then pointed out that my niece's best years to find a guy are from 18 to 30 and my niece can't afford to just throw a way 1/3 of her best chance to find a good man.
My niece really looks up to my wife and I think that my wife's encouragement will go over good enough to get my niece to go find a better guy.
Travelling is overrated. There's usually power lines in the view. And what's up with whichever hotel manager trainer decided that the staff should presumably just after cleaning the heads go around and touch and fold over every tissue in the room into some kind of triangle shape?
This is very true. It's the only tactic that's made any sort of progress with my sister, mother, and cousin. Very good progress! But only this way.
"I've made a life for myself with no real support and kinda fending for myself out here in the real world"
Why, that sounds perfectly wretched! Every good thing I have in my life is a gift of God manifested through my family.
My parents continue to support me with advice and encouragement. My in-laws point me in the direction of opportunities I'm not seeing. My siblings share their victories and their struggles with me, as I do with them. My wife is my right hand and my greatest defender, and my children are my delight. And I am further blessed with grandparents, cousins, uncles, and aunts so numerous that I can't even name them all!
I describe it as such on occasion to unmarried women friends of my wife's. There is a soul-deep longing they work hard to conceal, but they eyes don't lie.
The point is that she didn't do any wrong. The girls who date the hot, smart, confident boys, might need to occasionally admit that he was right and she was wrong.
Looking at the guys and girls who do date, all of them can sublimate their views for a while. They're able to say when they're wrong and who is more right than they are. Dumb guys in engineering and loud feminists rarely shut up for long enough of a duration.
"Ironically, one of the few ways men and women can have a true and honest friendship is if the man openly pursues the woman, is definitively rejected, but genuinely accepts the rejection as well as friendship in lieu of a relationship."
This is how I got my best friend. Big emphasis on the genuinely accepting the rejection part.
Were pretty open and straightforward and we flirted around for a short bit. And we talked through pretty much everything, her life and mine as both of us at the time were nursing some sorrows. And I was transparent about liking her right out the gate.
After about 2 or three undramatic rejections over like 3 months. And knowing and seeing her decisiveness with people. That door was closed for me. But I felt pretty peaceful. And I love chatting with her and hearing her stories. So it naturally changed to that.
I think two things were really clear to me then. That if I played some friendzone game I was lost. Either I decieve her which she isn't tolerant of. Or i decieve myself which I'm not tolerant of given our open friendship thus far.
And that I didn't feel to. I really was at peace with that path and tried my best. What exactly was I losing out on? The best part was what we were already enjoying.
It is a bit tricky for others to get though. My wife was understandably a skeptic till she met her and now they are friends.
Anyways I need to testify to the importance of the thorough rejection and the thorough acceptance. Not a clean enough rejection and as a man you can tell yourself "let's see if there is another way" and you might not be wrong. Not full acceptance and you transition to the friendzone or exit the friendship.
I salute you but your way is not the way most dudes deal with rejection. Best general advice is to move on and try with other woman. Sometimes guys can’t recognize the friend zone, even when in it.
I don't think either of you fully get it. Though both of you touch on some truth.
For me this is the first time any blogger/ writer spoke directly to this dynamic and reality.
I wish it were more common so there would be some easily recognized way of separating it from the friend zone or orbiting. I have done both in youth and it's neither.
It's also not as straightforward as a friendship because male female dynamics do not just vanish by fiat. Far less if you admire and genuinely get along with them. At the same time, they don't have undue authority either. It takes some navigating.
The only simple way to explain it is I am very happy with the outcome. And it was more of a surprise to me than anyone.
I'm married and she has a fiance now so iv long ruled out the ordinary explanations.
Funny that this comes up today. Lately I've seen multiple posts or articles stating all the 'benefits' of having kids after 40, how mums are more likely to live past 100 or be taken care of by their kids, whatever.
The cope is hard and they'll keep on saying whatever they need to justify the poor decisions they made. It's as if all these women don't realize that the most famous woman on earth was famous because she was the *mother* of God.
I wouldn't suggest this is the best strategy for women but the amount of women I've known who have had kids after 35 is "most of them" My wife and I are going to try for one more and we're both 40+
Best of luck to you both, may God bless you with another wonderful gift.
Thanks.
And how old were those women when they had their *first* child? You're looking to have more, which means you already had at least one. Having a first child is a lot harder than having a fifth for some reason.
Mostly early 30s. My wife popped out 3 between 35-40. First at 35. 30 is not too old to get your act together. I wish we started sooner but we didn't meet till 33. I absolutely 100% recommend starting younger than we did but life isn't over if you don't. And guys who think dating in your 30's is fun, I have news for you, yes, it's better than dating in your twenties if you're dorky you can grow out of it but it still 100% sucks and favors women.
Most of those stories are lies. Less than 3% of woman have any viable eggs after 40.
Nuber of sexual partners and history of hormonal poison birth control has an impact in many cases. Virgins without a history of h.b.c. use seem to do ok in my experience.
Sometimes girls pretend to be obtuse because they're trained in a translation of what it means to display humility and modesty. You get that a lot with church girls, the deep country protestant variants are exceptionally bad about this, see also, the denim skirt brigade, snake handlers, CoG and apostolic variants, etc.
Even in relatively mainstream protestant evangelical circles, it was "sinful" to acknowledge your beauty, sexuality, and see the male interest in you as good or okay. Depending on the volatility of the father, some girls would be terrifed or just ashamed of any male attention for fear they'd be branded a whore.
It's not really like that anymore but since the article references women approaching my age the 1990s early 2000s purity push fits some of their early life experiences. I've personally known a LOT of these girls. Freshman year of college blew their minds.
Normal girls in the normal world pretend to be obtuse because they're not interested in anything more than friendship and they don't want to blow up what they have. We (almost) always know. Deltas make the absolute best friends ever, they're safe. Who doesn't want a safe reliable man friend? Since they never (or rarely) make a solid move they'll stay in your orbit for years. Since they're never forthright you can just pretend to not notice they're "kind of sort of asking you not quite out but something something just the two of you his treat" and they won't press it if you don't bite.
I ran with a whole crew of guys throughout college and my 30s and would wingman for quite a few of them. I swear I had a better time getting girls than they did. I did the whole giggly compliments and girl talk combo and invited them to our pool table. Share a pitcher. Ask all the questions. Engineers and grad students in general were a funny sort of person. They're so brilliant, generally cute, literally can do anything, and in their areas can speak with confidence and strength, yet with social situations, getting girls, they're all bumbly and awkward. Personally I find it kind of adorable.
Unfortunately most ladies don't find that charming or adorable. They usually find it weak and pathetic and my guy, you will not get her number. Normal women want strength. They want confidence and courage. Read Vox, learn something. Be as confident and sure with her as you are complex mathematics. Take command. Make decisions.
Some girls are truly unable to read the room, but that's moving into spectrum territory and quite frankly, I have observed that they make a better pairing for a lot of brainier deltas but that's a topic for another day.
As to the gal in the article, she, like so many others , seems to have forgotten she was PRETENDING to not notice. It's amazing how quickly people rewrite history to make themselves look better and to avoid taking responsibility. Mirrors are kryptonite.
They never see the wall coming.
They have all the time in the world until they don't.
Then they lie about it. Make excuses. Have a midlife crisis. Cry. Blame. Deny. They won't admit that they were too full of themselves, were hoping to catch a man too far out of their league especially given their behavior/career choices. No honey, you aren't going to be a 35 year old boss babe AND marry a Tom Cruise. This isn't a Hallmark Christmas movie.
There's a Hypergamouse comic about this. The one where Kate was speed dating and the one where she whips out her credit card to pay for the date. Girl, just stop it.
Sounds like some of the girls I hung out with at college. My engineering class was pretty close, and we had an unwritten rule about not dating each out. So the lady engineers would go snag others for their friends.
I’m one of those that grew up in a detrimental purity culture, now at 29, a single virgin and paying a heavy price for what I was brainwashed into believing was virtuous and pleasing to God.
I’ve tried the best I know how to do, I’ve said yes to pretty much every date I’ve been asked on, mostly with guys I wasn’t really attracted to, and tried to make it work, like really tried! Like I’ll dress up, give him 2+ hours of undivided atten, ask lots of questions about him/his life, laugh at all his jokes/crack my own jokes, give words of encouragement and positivity and thank him for his time (+generosity if he paid). Really trying to bring out the very best in him.
By date 3 he’s antsy to hop into bed and comfortable enough to be babytalking, tell “lovers lies” (ie. you’re the most beautiful), and mentioning marriage.
While I feel like I barely know the guy. I just don’t know how to become attached to someone enough to sleep with him, less choose him as a life partner, when I’ve spent less time with him than the first day on a new job.
And I’m 100% guilty of shutting it down cause I thought he should find someone attracted to him and I don’t know how to become attracted to him
Anyway, prime example of how it truly is a game of players/sluts now. If you’re average, no other mating strategy works.
There's a special kind of hell for churches who promote female celibacy disguising it as a virtue, whether in the obvious "nuns in a convent" way or the less obvious "misunderstood purity" way like yours.
I pretty much bypassed all the usual dating stuff by marrying my college sweetheart and doing things pretty much in the opposite order that I hope for my kids, so take this suggestion for what it's worth (also, I don't know your specific circumstances or dating process, so if you've already done this my apologies in advance):
Maybe the process of dating is itself the issue? Might it be more effective to put yourself in situations where you spend time interacting with eligible men in a way that you get to know them without the pressure of getting into bed on the third meeting?
Suggestions would be any kind of co-ed hobby or activity that meets at least a couple of times a month. A class at a local community college, a sport, volunteering... essentially something that gives you an opportunity to get to know people who already have similar interests and see how they interact with yourself and others. Sometimes this gives a chance to know people more deeply than you would on a date.
Also, I agree with the commenter who said that if there's someone you have a crush on, you should try for it. Ask him out or just put yourself in his vicinity where he is more likely to interact with you regularly. Worst that can happen is he says no. Having done that a couple of times before I met Mr. C, yes, it's terrifying to put yourself out there, but ultimately it also saves a lot of time you'd otherwise waste longing for Mr. Right-for-Someone-Else. It's a lot easier to move on when you know for a fact it isn't happening, and if he's a jerk about it so much the better - you'll get over him instantly.
That’s really good advice, I could definitely do more as far as putting myself out there.
I guess my concern is that I’m so hung up on getting it right the first time, that it’s self sabotaging.
I mean, if a man is kind and decently competent and mostly healthy, shouldn’t I feel inspired to sleep with him? Maybe I cracked down on my libido so hard that it’s not responding properly.
I feel bad asking them to wait a month or more when they’re pretty much ready after the first date. Especially when what they’re getting isn’t even exceptional.
But yeah either way, the best solution is probably to meet in a non explicitly romantic context
Libido is a tricky issue. Meeting Mr. Right probably won't work out so well if you don't actually want to be touched, and sometimes we don't want to be touched by anyone.
That said, often what we think is lack of interest is actually lack of the right hormonal balance, unhelpful medications, or even anemia if your iron levels are low. Exercise often helps in that regard, and it's never a bad thing to learn your body's cues at different times in your cycle. Assuming you aren't taking hormonal birth control, around ovulation you should be feeling a lot more... interested... in just the idea of engaging in relations with someone.
Finding a good book to read may also help get your mind and body more interested in certain activities, though of course ymmv.
I actually love dancing! The church I was raised in was very strict, and we had the cheeky phrase “We don’t allow premarital sex cause it might lead to dancing!”
Omg they acted like us dancing was going to send us right to hell.
I recognize that saying from the church who pretended it wasn't a church I grew up in. Was the phrase used to bully the anti dance minority? Are you Norwegian?
Yes, I wish I had thought of that. Totally agree as well about interacting with opposite-sex partners who are way older. I never danced, but most of the activities I did were with retirees. Great people, and had I been single I'm sure a lot of them had grandkids they would have been looking to introduce to a nice girl.
We were doing what the preachers taught, what all of "decent Christian society" said, what the elders said. Sex before marriage is sin, men want virgins, girls guard your purity.
The 90s were a morally bankrupt cesspool of limited dating opportunities. Has it gotten even worse?? Hard to imagine. It's sad.
For all the losers who simp for dirtbags like Tate. You can't cry about body counts while racking up your own body counts. The hypocrisy is a joke. Be a slut so a guy will date you! Oh, I'm not marrying the likes of you...you have a body count. Jezebel! Whore!
I quit dating in my 20s. It was a waste of time. The ONE guy who didn't try to get in my pants was an atheist. Seriously. An atheist. I tried missionary dating but that was a bad idea. Obviously didn't work. He didn't want to come to church with me so we we ended things.
Men were great as friends and I had a fantastic crew of great friends to hang out with, I didn't hate men, but dating was an absolute drag. 20somethings just wanted to play around, fuck, and focus on school and later career goals. They weren't serious people. I was probably too serious in my 20s and would have done well to date 30 somethings but eww...they were OLD.
I got a decent job with a pension, bought a house, and joined clubs, was active at church, and enjoyed my life without the drama and nonsense most men brought to the table.
So no, I don't have any regrets marrying late. I fully believe that I was in obedience to Scripture at the time and that I made the best choices with what knowledge I had available.
Also, I was FULLY aware that guys date around for cheap sex and marry later when they're ready to settle down. My dad and mom both warned me about that and I'm glad I listened. When some too-hot (to be hitting on me) guy comes fluttering around spouting a bunch of bullshit I knew better. I am not a fool.
So to those kinds of guys, fuck all of you.
To all these tail chasers. You're whoremongers and you destroy virtue. You're obsessed with sex. You're horny, selfish liars, immature, thieves of what's not yours. You lack self control. You lack class. You're arrogant deceivers. You use people then shame them for being used.
Best yet, I beat you. I beat all of you. I didn't fall for your lies or your petty attempts at flattery. I dumped your pathetic loser asses the minute it was obvious what you really wanted. Find another chump. I ain't your girl.
Am I bitter? Hell no. In my youth I was angry, I felt that God was cursing me for my obedience, but I persevered. I got the best reward for my chastity, my patience, and my wisdom. At 33 I married an amazing human being, a worthy, pure, honest man after God's own heart. I have everything I could have ever wanted in life. I have two beautiful children. My man was absolutely worth the wait. I was pregnant at 40 and it was easy. First try. I still had eggs.
You're 29. You absolutely can find love and I'll pray for the Lord to bless you with a good one. Don't lose hope.
"For all the losers who simp for dirtbags like Tate. You can't cry about body counts while racking up your own body counts. The hypocrisy is a joke."
A common complaint in the men's discussions is women who lump together the sexual winners with the sexual losers. Most of the people women consider 'losers' are absolutely not 'racking up' their own body counts. Among young men like 30% haven't had sex in a year or more, if ever. The reason the men who get lots of sex are getting lots of sex is women considering them 'winners' and then becoming bitter that they didn't get commitment.
Lastly, how are men supposed to get women at all if they don't chase tail? The reason the 30% incel men don't have anything is in large part because they have given up on chasing tail and are demoralized by comments like this harping on the evil of men going after women. They chose to believe comments like this one, to their own detriment. You won't reward them and no other woman will. The complete failure of Bumble shows that women are too lazy or scared to even send 'hi' to a man they're interested in.
Thank you, I cried and tried to dm you ❤️
I got it and replied.
> The hypocrisy is a joke.
> You can't cry about body counts while racking up your own body counts
It is not hypocrisy - it is natural and normal.
A fat man still wants to date a skinny woman.
In the same way a man who has slept around still wants to marry a woman with a low body count.
(2) Man here. Being horny doesn't excuse whoredom for men any more than it excuses whoredom for women.
Bless your heart. All of the stuff right wing podcast bros say sounds the same. They're all interchangeable talking heads. I just pulled a name out of the hat.
Vox is literally the only one that has something better to say and is worth reading. He's a needle in a haystack.
I did have contempt for it. I viewed men as lacking in self control and integrity. I consistently felt lied to and that they were just trying to use me. Of course I quit dating. Now I have a daughter to worry about for all the same reasons. I want her to be a virtuous wife and have good prospects.
I know I wasn't in their league. That's my whole point! I am plenty nice but definitely plain. Cute, not pretty. I've never been pretty. I can drive a tractor and haul 500 bales of hay into a loft but I'm not much to look at. And no at 23 I didn't want to date someone way older. At close to 50 I wouldn't want to date a 70 year old. That's natural. I wanted someone my own age, my own faith, my own culture. A real life partner. So I chose to wait around for Mr. G to finish his doctorate. He was all the right kinds of nerdy. We're on equal levels of weirdness. It's a good vibe.
Bitterness? No. It's anger at the culture of using and tossing of girls who would otherwise have been low count wives for better suited men. I knew plenty of gullible girls who monkeybranched away from solid guys to the obviously too hot for them guys, slept with the guy, "he says he loves me" and then get ditched for a hotter babe later on. They didn't listen to me. I warned them. And they cried bitter sad tears. They just kept upping their body counts doing this delusional nonsense. They ended up worse off. I used to be a counselor. I've sat through a lot of sessions about this stuff with sad broken girls. People do stupid stuff and it's fully on the girls to guard themselves and choose wisely. Guys aren't going to do it.
And I did win. How you can't see that is beyond me. My husband would never have married me if I was just another cast off who'd been run through by every fake nice guy with a cheesy pick up line. If I'd gone out into the world thinking these too hot for me guys were at all honorable or serious in their intentions, if I'd slept with even one of them, I'd have ended up in the absolute gutter, if I ended up a single mother I'd be disowned by my whole family. So no. I was smarter and played the long game and most certainly won. More than won. I was blessed beyond measure. And I do feel a little sniggering sense of vindictiveness about it. Like I said, fuck em. I spent over a decade being mocked as a prude. Now I have a beautiful gift. It's my reward.
I know y'all mean well but this stuff really does flare my temper.
I'd absolutely love to see folks married off to all their corresponding best fit numbers and be happy and make a million babies. I wish people weren't so hung up on money and status and found simple satisfaction in a life with solid deltas. They're so wonderful to be around. Especially the engineers. They can fix anything.
Lastly, until I hear my pastor declare the scriptures now say premarital sex is on the table I'm going to have to stick with what I know and have been taught all my life. I have to obey God and scripture as best as I possibly can.
You read the environment correctly. The dating/mating game as it is currently played in the west is too much like a casino. I am not a gambler, know some who enjoy it. I understand statistics behind the games. Whenever I enter a casino and see all the glitter and flashy stuff, some very high end at some levels, I just look around at the people and tell myself; this beautiful place is paid for by those who failed basic math and statistics. These losers, even if they are having fun are going to lose. There may be one in a million who win big, but the whales who lose big more than cover for that. The dating mating game is best played outside the casino.
“Being sexy is causing your brothers to stumble”
“Sports/clubs/drinking/dancing is worldly”
“The best apples are the hardest to get”
“Looking for love means you’re not looking for Christ”
It kinda hurts that the leaders didn’t even practice what they preached. Pretty much all the fornicators I know have happy relationships/marriages, and the one virgin married-at-20 couple who did things “right” is now divorced a decade later.
The pill is what really changed the game and brought out the worst in all of us.
Average girls have to put out just to compete, and average men feel inadequate that they don’t have a “high score”
If you aren't attracted to any of the guys asking you out then you are probably less valuable than you think you are.
I'm not sure how to fix that. My sister has the same issue and I think she will be forever alone.
She was a 7/8 but was focused on her career. Now 10 years later she's a 5 but has no romantic interest in the 5s/6s who are interested in her.
It’s not that I think I’m more valuable than them, I actively avoid men I have crushes on because I know that I’m beneath them.
It’s the purity culture for me, the idea that any sexual encounter with a man who isn’t my husband makes me irredeemably damaged. My system is set to ‘make the right choice’ not ‘pick one and hit the sack til you get attached’
I’m not sure how to remedy the situation either, other than keep trying and fail faster.
Look for a theonomist you find attractive. Your virginity combined with your purity instincts are probably a huge selling point to him. He gets to date a virgin who he can trust won't try to have sex with him so she can use Biblical law (Exodus 22:16-17) to force him to marry her before he knows she would make a good wife for him.
Why is the purity culture *the* problem?
There are lots of "no sex before marriage" women married with kids in their early 20s.
Because you have left things so late you just need to operate on a faster timeline. I.e. marriage within 6 months of dating.
By the way you shouldn't actively avoid the men you have crushes on. That's crazy thinking.
I’m sorry I didn’t mean to imply that all purity culture is detrimental, just the way I way taught/internalized it was.
Which, like you said, will just take some hard resetting and readjusting.
But I don’t think I’m crazy for avoiding attractive men; I know that as Miss Average there’s no point in going after Mr. 1 in 10
I'm trying to say you won't be happy settling with a man you aren't attracted to.
You need to change things so you are attracted to the men slightly above your level.
The good news for women is that attraction is more relative than it is for men. So changing your environment can help tremendously.
A man on $80k/year in a big city might be unattractive to a woman but the same man in a smaller city might be highly attractive.
What can you do?
I think you either have to hard reset your expectations or go after the clueless men who are above you in ranking.
For example move to a male dominated city/environment or move out to the country.
"Gammas for Christ." That's the first time I've seen that phrase, and it got a full covfefe snort from me.
I had primarily attributed just lunatic neo-marxism (with attendant admixtures of Satanism) to a lot of the glitter churches popping up. Considering then in terms of Gamma SSH co-opting/convergence offers additional, useful context.
Thx.
Beauty is a huge plus, there’s probably hope for her! She can likely snag someone she’s attracted to
I will say that alcohol definitely helps that internal shame/disgust response to male appraisal. All it would take is a night of drinks with a guy who is as attractive as she is
Club 5 would do well to have dating socials and leave the delusions out of it.
This was 20 years ago now. Anyway. I knew a guy from church. Mid 40s. Kind of awkward. Not good looking but not horrible either. Crummy but stable job. A sweet girl at church crushed on him so hard. She was late 30s. A little heavy. They were in the same league. They'd have been perfect for each other right? No, he was chasing the 20something hotties. My guy, no... just no. You could have been so happy. That sweet girl would have doted on him.
Same girl later married. They're happy little doughballs together and even managed one child. Guy is still single, now in his 60s. Chasing 20something hotties.
Looks fade. There's so much more to life than nicely assembled face parts.
You're kidding. You've met delusional people before, right?