Interesting. "The schismatic act you are about to undertake would deprive them of the ... in some cases, even valid reception of the sacraments" means that Jesus won't enter into the communion bread, the water of baptism won't bring with it baptism by the Holy Spirit.
I don't know if he's correct or not, but it's a veiled way of speaking for God Himself.
(Which means that Pope Leo must be a Bravo, right? Right? Right? ;)
I once talked to a man who visited different churches, including non-Protestant churches, in a quest to find the correct church.
Once, he visited a low church Lutheran congregation. The sermon contained the typical Protestant misunderstandings about what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. After church, he tried to tell them that Rome didn't embrace all the errors and heresies the sermon had accused Rome of teaching. He knew this because he was discussing theology with a Roman Catholic priest at least once a month.
He was taken aside by a bravo and informed that in that church, they would believe what the alpha said. I don't know if he asked if that only applied when the alpha spoke ex cathedra, but the result was him being told that he didn't have to come back.
Hierarchies provide structure to an institution, system, people, government, etc. In that sense, they are good and serve an important purpose. They act as a stabilizer. It seems that the societies and institutions with the most defined and best protected hierarchies provide the most peace and success for their people. I'm thinking of Rome comparing the end of the Republic to the early empire under Augustus, Japan under the Tokugawa shogunate, ancient Egypt, the Inca and the Maya, China in general, as opposed to sub-Saharan Africa, pre-Rome and pre-Church Europe, and any of the locations that were defined by small, warring tribes of people. Is that a fair assessment?
As Pope Leo is a solid Delta my prediction for months has been he'll kind of begrudgingly accept it mostly by ignoring it. Delta conflict avoidance. He doesn't want to issue some proclamation of Excommunication. He wants this stuff to go away so he can write his encyclicals on AI. The only question is if the liberal gammas around him force him into it.
Leo promised to see Vigano to potentially reverse Vigano being excommunicated, then he took it back and canceled the meet. It fits your thesis of risk aversion but also shows he won't fix any excommunications the staff around him enact.
Meh. Another Triumvirate. Been about 15 of those religions, the Times Three. Christianity is a Designer Slave Religion, created by The Justinians, odds on. I liked the Gnostics but France barbecued them for believing that ordinary people could talk to God w/o a priest. Ah beautiful Langeudoc! Heavens forbid! & gnostic-ly, i reckon " this is Hell/nor are we out of it" 👏
"Nor is this post a place for anyone to make the case for his particular flavor of Christianity in preference to all of the others."
While I do respect and acknowledge that this isn't the place for it, the controversy is a direct result of the fundamental problem dividing all Christians: the matter of interpretation. Interpretation of scripture or in this case of canon law.
Orthodox and Protestants are generally more hostile to the SSPX than Catholics are in the online theological servers I hang out in. Which is strange, because Orthodox, Protestants, and the SSPX all agree that the Catholic Church isn't the church Christ established. At least not anymore, if it ever was.
So here is the crux of the matter: before the enlightened moderns redefined little boys into little girls and little girls into little boys, they redefined the church that Christ established into not being his church.
When it comes to definitions, your opinion and my opinion do not matter. God defined what the church is in Matthew 16:17-19.
And it is a shame that we no longer agree on how to interpret those verses.
"While I do respect and acknowledge that this isn't the place for it" ...let me just write a wall of text about my very important opinions on what I was explicitly asked to not write about. Check your gamma dude.
E. Micheal Jones has written some interesting stuff about the SSPX. To summarize, the progressive liberal leadership faction is finally dying out. For conservative/reactionary elements to leave when the Vatican II fanboys are dying in droves is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No doubt the traditionalist factions have been brutalized under GloboHomo in a multitude of ways. Almost for 100 years. So to leave when Church traditionalists are needed most pisses him off quite a bit.
BTW, I’m not a Catholic. But I’ve seen the pain and suffering caused by progressive infiltration of church bodies. It ain’t pretty.
Paul VI invalidated all the Church’s sacraments in 1969, so there’s still no point in dealing with the Vatican at all. Mainstream Catholic bishops and priests are unable to provide sacraments even if they used the pre-1969 forms because their ordinations are invalid, just as with Anglican or Lutheran clergy.
The above-board reason was to bring the sacraments back to older forms and to increase lay participation, playing into the Protestant frame that the Catholic Church had built up useless accretions and was too remote from the people.
But the new episcopal consecration rite was originally a prayer for an installation of a Patriarch — that is, for someone who was already a bishop. It can’t make a priest into a bishop.
There are nascent movements within old mainline Protestant church denominations that are banking on the mass die-off of the boomer old-guard. They are playing the old proggy game of getting themselves into positions of influence and playing a quiet waiting game.
It will not work. The progressive march through the institutions worked not just because they infiltrated, but because they were ruthless killers when opportunity struck. Never let a crisis go to waste.
It’s not enough to just be there. That’s not all the progs did.
Anyone entering and just biding their time is making the same mistake Gen X and Millennials did with college. They went thinking (being told/inculcated) that college makes you successful, instead of recognizing that the causality was (broadly speaking) backwards.
This dynamic is similar to that of herd animals. On a day-to-day basis sometimes the bulls face more physical risk from sexual competitors than from predators. Military officers in peacetime face more risk from internal politics than from the putative enemies. Just the internal politicking is hard enough before gadflies start criticizing.
Interesting. "The schismatic act you are about to undertake would deprive them of the ... in some cases, even valid reception of the sacraments" means that Jesus won't enter into the communion bread, the water of baptism won't bring with it baptism by the Holy Spirit.
I don't know if he's correct or not, but it's a veiled way of speaking for God Himself.
(Which means that Pope Leo must be a Bravo, right? Right? Right? ;)
Are there any alphas acting as elders or bishops in the church now? Anywhere?
I once talked to a man who visited different churches, including non-Protestant churches, in a quest to find the correct church.
Once, he visited a low church Lutheran congregation. The sermon contained the typical Protestant misunderstandings about what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. After church, he tried to tell them that Rome didn't embrace all the errors and heresies the sermon had accused Rome of teaching. He knew this because he was discussing theology with a Roman Catholic priest at least once a month.
He was taken aside by a bravo and informed that in that church, they would believe what the alpha said. I don't know if he asked if that only applied when the alpha spoke ex cathedra, but the result was him being told that he didn't have to come back.
The Pope doesn’t have the option of leaving people outside the fold. He’s explicitly commissioned to convert everyone.
Hierarchies provide structure to an institution, system, people, government, etc. In that sense, they are good and serve an important purpose. They act as a stabilizer. It seems that the societies and institutions with the most defined and best protected hierarchies provide the most peace and success for their people. I'm thinking of Rome comparing the end of the Republic to the early empire under Augustus, Japan under the Tokugawa shogunate, ancient Egypt, the Inca and the Maya, China in general, as opposed to sub-Saharan Africa, pre-Rome and pre-Church Europe, and any of the locations that were defined by small, warring tribes of people. Is that a fair assessment?
Vox: “Nor is this post a place for anyone to make the case for his particular flavor of Christianity in preference to all of the others.”
Counting how many commenters have done just this so far.
No wonder Vox is sometimes annoyed.
As Pope Leo is a solid Delta my prediction for months has been he'll kind of begrudgingly accept it mostly by ignoring it. Delta conflict avoidance. He doesn't want to issue some proclamation of Excommunication. He wants this stuff to go away so he can write his encyclicals on AI. The only question is if the liberal gammas around him force him into it.
Well we got our answer on this. Liberal Gamma Cardinal Tocho Fernandez wrote a scathing excommunication. Leo stayed out of it.
Leo promised to see Vigano to potentially reverse Vigano being excommunicated, then he took it back and canceled the meet. It fits your thesis of risk aversion but also shows he won't fix any excommunications the staff around him enact.
Meh. Another Triumvirate. Been about 15 of those religions, the Times Three. Christianity is a Designer Slave Religion, created by The Justinians, odds on. I liked the Gnostics but France barbecued them for believing that ordinary people could talk to God w/o a priest. Ah beautiful Langeudoc! Heavens forbid! & gnostic-ly, i reckon " this is Hell/nor are we out of it" 👏
You're literally retarded.
And you clearly can't read.
I think splits will happen across numerous traditions, as younger folks reject anything gay or pro-Greatest Ally.
"Nor is this post a place for anyone to make the case for his particular flavor of Christianity in preference to all of the others."
While I do respect and acknowledge that this isn't the place for it, the controversy is a direct result of the fundamental problem dividing all Christians: the matter of interpretation. Interpretation of scripture or in this case of canon law.
Orthodox and Protestants are generally more hostile to the SSPX than Catholics are in the online theological servers I hang out in. Which is strange, because Orthodox, Protestants, and the SSPX all agree that the Catholic Church isn't the church Christ established. At least not anymore, if it ever was.
So here is the crux of the matter: before the enlightened moderns redefined little boys into little girls and little girls into little boys, they redefined the church that Christ established into not being his church.
When it comes to definitions, your opinion and my opinion do not matter. God defined what the church is in Matthew 16:17-19.
And it is a shame that we no longer agree on how to interpret those verses.
Wall of text alert
"While I do respect and acknowledge that this isn't the place for it"
You have zero respect dude.
It would be more efficient to simply identify yourself as a Gamma. We already know what you're going to do in these circumstances.
"While I do respect and acknowledge that this isn't the place for it" ...let me just write a wall of text about my very important opinions on what I was explicitly asked to not write about. Check your gamma dude.
Public school teacher here.
Best move I ever made was to leave a corrupt organization and take my chances.
Old school was full blown DEI, LGBTQ+ etc.
When that happened I refused to go along.
I was still fully employed in good standing, but the situation was intolerable on both ends.
Moving on was anything but the end of the world.
E. Micheal Jones has written some interesting stuff about the SSPX. To summarize, the progressive liberal leadership faction is finally dying out. For conservative/reactionary elements to leave when the Vatican II fanboys are dying in droves is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No doubt the traditionalist factions have been brutalized under GloboHomo in a multitude of ways. Almost for 100 years. So to leave when Church traditionalists are needed most pisses him off quite a bit.
BTW, I’m not a Catholic. But I’ve seen the pain and suffering caused by progressive infiltration of church bodies. It ain’t pretty.
Paul VI invalidated all the Church’s sacraments in 1969, so there’s still no point in dealing with the Vatican at all. Mainstream Catholic bishops and priests are unable to provide sacraments even if they used the pre-1969 forms because their ordinations are invalid, just as with Anglican or Lutheran clergy.
What was their rationale for doing so? Besides it being an inherently fake and gay thing to do.
Because they’re evil.
The above-board reason was to bring the sacraments back to older forms and to increase lay participation, playing into the Protestant frame that the Catholic Church had built up useless accretions and was too remote from the people.
But the new episcopal consecration rite was originally a prayer for an installation of a Patriarch — that is, for someone who was already a bishop. It can’t make a priest into a bishop.
There are nascent movements within old mainline Protestant church denominations that are banking on the mass die-off of the boomer old-guard. They are playing the old proggy game of getting themselves into positions of influence and playing a quiet waiting game.
Who knows if it will succeed?
It will not work. The progressive march through the institutions worked not just because they infiltrated, but because they were ruthless killers when opportunity struck. Never let a crisis go to waste.
It’s not enough to just be there. That’s not all the progs did.
Anyone entering and just biding their time is making the same mistake Gen X and Millennials did with college. They went thinking (being told/inculcated) that college makes you successful, instead of recognizing that the causality was (broadly speaking) backwards.
“Among other things, the council revolutionized the Catholic Church’s relations with other religions”
The revolution against the Catholic Church already happened, so they have little ground for complaint.
The kurgan explains all this very well.
It'll be interesting to see who keeps the brand name a few decades down the road.
The one on the vatican.
Almost certainly. That's how it worked for Luther, too.
This dynamic is similar to that of herd animals. On a day-to-day basis sometimes the bulls face more physical risk from sexual competitors than from predators. Military officers in peacetime face more risk from internal politics than from the putative enemies. Just the internal politicking is hard enough before gadflies start criticizing.
"BUT HOW CAN WE ARGUE WITH YOU IF WE LEAVE!?"