Yeah, I think that might be the case in this situation. Sigma kinda peaced out and gamma took reigns. Sigma stepping back in again and is very annoyed and not hiding it.
Giving Gammas authority is a terrible idea, every single time.
I just saw a video where the maker (Fat Electrician) mentioned Transistor manufacturing, and got curious. My research turned up a guy who freaking embodies the Gamma Subject Matter Expert.
William Shockley. He made his coworkers and subordinates miserable at Bell Labs, then founded Shockley Semiconductor, and hired a bunch of really smart guys.
Then he let his spiteful paranoia and hunger for absolute control drive them away and destroy his company. They founded Fairchild Semiconductor, which directly led to the creation of Intel, AMD, and National Semiconductor. Silicon Valley, basically.
Dude gamma raged so hard he created modern computing by kicking himself in the balls.
Gammas in authority: not even once.
Hell, I wonder if it would be eucivic to have identified gammas all rounded up and forced to live in a segregated area, apart from the rest of society. Like blacks. But that's probably impractical.
What occupational environment is truly best for a gamma? Would gammas thrive best in vocations that require little teamwork and thus where hierarchies are weak? The arts are one example.
Gammas really thrive in any non profit environment. Any overhead department in a P&L organization. Any government agency, any nonprofit organization, including religious, universities, etc.
Hierarchy can be strong or weak, big or small. The key is money comes no matter what they do, universities are prime examples. A P&L organization routinely goes bankrupt while the others seem to go on and on and if they do mange to fail the gamma jumps on another non profit lifeboat.
Think of the aggression displayed by Maximus towards Commodus - open, public, defiant, risking his own life. Now think of the aggression Commodus had towards Maximus - secret, hidden, cowardly, and all designed to give him plausible deniability and avoid any personal risk.
A gamma desperately wants to socially engineer a plausibly-deniable situation where somebody - anybody - else will punch you in the face. And then reap the spoils for himself.
I'll give it a go: Alpha aggression will be directed openly towards those challenging him and will stop with the threat is neutralized. Gamma aggression will be overly technical/wall-of-text and weasel-y. Often pre-rehearsed in their head with the whole group clapping at the end because of how right they are. Will simmer endlessly in the background.
In my personal observations, a gamma is often mistaken at first for special and higher status by average people, because of his subject matter expertise and intelligence. It's not until the sparkle wears off that his true low status shows through. Has anyone else observed this?
All the time. It's especially sharp when a woman buys into it than when men do. I think in part that's because men can just quietly exclude a gamma from their group. But also, the men don't date the gammas, so there's a lot less emotional involvement.
Back in the 90s, when I was living and working in the section 8 neighborhoods, I saw this a lot. A woman would get with a guy, but soon after drop him and be revulsed even thinking about him. This happened with women ranging from high school girls to middle aged women. It seemed to be worst at the far ends of the age range, the girls because they were young and inexperienced, and the women in their later 30s and 40s at the time (1990s) because, well, Boomer. Boomer women were absolutely horrible with this.
The fact that a woman could get with a gamma and not know it was somewhat understandable - the first time. The fact that even after this guy repeatedly showed his gamma colors, or had a public meltdown* or whatever, some other woman, fully aware of all this, would take up with him. That's the part I could never figure out.
Well, except for a few cases where the gamma had a good paying job and the woman had kids to support. But in those cases, it seemed like everyone knew what was going on, except for the gamma himself. Why the women with no kids did this, I have no idea.
* I still remember late one night while sweeping the parking lot outside work, a short local gamma guy was up on the sidewalk on the pay phone. He literally degenerated from complimentary to aggressively shouting into the phone while calling a woman he had gone out with earlier in the evening. Took less than 5 minutes. I wasn't trying to listen, but on a quiet summer night like that you could hear this from at least 2 blocks away.
im usualy not conflict avoidant at work but right now im a supervisor on a construction site and i believe i have a dangerous gamma on my crew.
He blurts out stupid comments/questions, subverts the chain of command, does things contrary to whats hes explicitly ordered multiple times a day BUT he is protected by both his position as shop steward and being a local versus traveler.
So despite my attempts behind the scenes to remove him, he remains.
this man is huge 6ft 340 and served 10 yrs for manslaughter over killing rival drug dealer. Hes a literal MAD TRAPPER having killed thousands of fur animals.
He gives me Ted Kazinski vibes.
In a futile attempt to remove him i quietly asked his biggest haters on my crew if they would sign paperwork to remove him and they all declined and were afraid to put the intials to anything to remove him.
SO at best i am making sure he never gets a steward position again so he can be fired more easily in the future.
The central thesis of Ted Kaczynski's manifesto, Industrial Society and Its Future, is that the Industrial Revolution and subsequent technological progress have been a disaster for the human race, fundamentally incompatible with human freedom and dignity.
Core Arguments
Technology as an Autonomous System Kaczynski argues that technology is not a neutral tool but an autonomous, self-perpetuating system that dictates human behavior rather than serving human needs. He posits a "technological imperative": once a technology is introduced, it inevitably expands and forces society to adapt to it, regardless of negative consequences. Humans must conform to the requirements of the machine, leading to the erosion of individual autonomy.
Psychological Suffering and the "Power Process" The manifesto contends that modern society causes widespread psychological suffering by depriving individuals of the "power process"—the innate human need to go through the cycle of goal-setting, effort, and achievement. In industrial society, survival is guaranteed by the system, leaving people with empty lives. To cope, individuals engage in "surrogate activities" (such as consumerism, career climbing, or activism) which provide artificial goals but fail to satisfy the deep psychological need for genuine autonomy and connection with nature.
Impossibility of Reform A critical pillar of his thesis is that the industrial-technological system cannot be reformed to preserve freedom. Because the system requires strict regulation and predictability to function, it must inevitably restrict human behavior and suppress dissent. Kaczynski asserts that attempts to modify the system from within are futile; the only solution is the complete collapse of the industrial system to allow a return to small-scale, self-sufficient communities living close to nature.
Critique of Leftism Kaczynski devotes significant attention to criticizing modern "leftism," which he defines not just as a political ideology but as a psychological phenomenon driven by feelings of inferiority and "oversocialization." He argues that leftist movements inadvertently strengthen the technological system by focusing on social grievances that distract from the primary threat: technology itself.
Seeing the same dynamics up close elsewhere, though it’s a case of job not done rather than a coup. Solution is exactly as Vox describes. Deltas keep finding any excuse at all not to do the obvious.
Dad's a Bravo. He impressed the lesson very clearly that you never flinch from firing people, pay the qualified more than the competition, identify talent, and the thing will run without you. Which I then saw happen.
I understand where the Delta endless excuses thing comes from, but it's tough to watch.
Amelioration isn't ideal, but sometimes it's all you've got in the now. How would you identify a Delta who didn't have this weakness under pressure, if your pool didn't have the Bravo it needed? Does a martial arts background help offset this? Irish/ Italian/ Jewish background? Anyone here seen a Delta break this? If so, do you know what helped?
It's sounds all too painfully obvious that gammas are detrimental to any organization. They're probably more dangerous than any competent business competitor. Gammas seem to spend more time orchestrating carnage inside the group than to external rivals. Functionally, there's no difference between a gamma and someone hired to infiltrate a company for purposes of corporate espionage. The latter might just be a bit more competent.
Troublemakers only get stronger the longer you allow, and justify, their behavior. Better to endure the relatively small amount of pain at the start then having to endure the longer lasting pain once they've been allowed to go on for any length of time.
It really just boils down to: do you want to suffer pain now, or later? Because either way, there will be pain. That's just how it is with Gammas.
“People in the late ‘80s thought NWA were alarming, but the reality is that few things are more terrifying than a Gamma With Authority in an organization.”
I worked under a Gamma for the last decade, and he did quite a bit of damage to our organization. I'm one of 5 department heads who reported to him directly. He was such a roadblock that we ended up finding ways to work around him as much as possible to get things done.
One of the other department heads is probably an Alpha. He's highly competent, good looking, motivated, hot younger wife, etc. He would always make good suggestions and ask pertinent questions in meetings, which our Gamma boss found extremely threatening. So he would constantly try to establish dominance over the Alpha, dismiss any suggestions he made, shut him down whenever he asked a question, and eventually ended up banning him from meetings altogether.
Eventually, it all caught up to him, and they eliminated his position a few months ago. But on his way out the door, he made sure to advise our new boss to shoot down certain suggestions the Alpha would make, thereby making one final attempt to dominate him from beyond the grave, so to speak.
Second, Secretary immediately goes to bank with approved and signed resolution to remove, requiring an immediate removal of Gamma from account signatures, revocation of his passwords, credentials, citing malevolent backlash. Get forms to update signature cards. Don't wait.
Third, Secretary contacts Secretary of State or whichever state office that handles incorporation. Discuss with them how to return to not-for-profit from an unauthorized change to charitable non-profit, note that the organization never approved such change from meeting minutes. May also require discussion with IRS to change sub-chapters.
Fourth, announce to the membership and donors that the Treasurer was removed for inability to perform functions of the office. Anyone asking out of misguided sympathy can be told that the organization's bills weren't being paid on time. Usually enough to shut up everyone but the remaining personal acquaintance. Select a competent and trusted Delta as Treasurer.
Move on. This blows over within a year. The additional steps cut out any possible web of rules-lawyering, lying, hidden power levers, or playing for sympathy.
Volunterr position, voted on by organization. Some signs, but at the time it was a tossup of low Delta/high Gamma. Competent at Delta things. had purchase authority for physical plant stuff. Over time and stress, Gamma emerged, that he was telling different stories to other people, and always right on questionable stuff for "reasons." Came to an emotional "my way or I quit" call. Accepted resignation and set of keys, then we re-keyed exteriors and masters immediately.
The position had changed to needing Bravo or high Delta to manage maintenance or repair by others. Different SME needs, and ability to delegate and monitor.
Been in three situations where I had to weigh the cost of 'considerable pain'.
In one, I had all the authority in the world and was armed with SSH knowledge. I never backed down and acted quickly. Took a totally shit crew to an effective one. This took ruthless extermination of 'critical challengers' multiple times.
The other two? I was a subordinate, a newbie in a new industry each time. Still SSH aware, but fearful of blowback if I stepped out of line.
I learned very little by mentorship, had to learn most things myself and was in constant conflict anyways. It never stopped until I took on the 'considerable pain'.
Always take the considerable pain. It won't always be a gamma who you have to fight, but you will have to fight.
Even if you've done it before. Even if people treat you well and usually avoid conflict with you. It will pop up to test you.
"I learned very little by mentorship, had to learn most things myself and was in constant conflict anyways. It never stopped until I took on the 'considerable pain'."
At this point I wonder if "mentorship" is simply a myth. No different than unicorns. It's a downright struggle session to get more seasoned employees to show new people the most basic of work operations.
I think Bravos mentor. Deltas have to be told what to teach as an assigned task but if not done carefully, or they aren't secure in their role, you can spook them into thinking they are being replaced. Gammas pretend to teach but leave out critical information to sabotage the new person and play the rescuing hero. Alphas kinda teach with general advice but are usually more focused on talking about what they did.
Do sigmas sometimes give up and leave their organization to flounder if it becomes overrun?
Yeah, I think that might be the case in this situation. Sigma kinda peaced out and gamma took reigns. Sigma stepping back in again and is very annoyed and not hiding it.
My understanding, and Vox will correct me if I'm wrong, is that it's practically one of the defining traits of a sigma.
Or too annoying, or boring, etc... If it's not worth it to them, they're gone, as I understand it.
It's harder to keep them from leaving, and usually no one actually wants to. See hypergamous "He's such a jerk!" after a very polite interaction.
Giving Gammas authority is a terrible idea, every single time.
I just saw a video where the maker (Fat Electrician) mentioned Transistor manufacturing, and got curious. My research turned up a guy who freaking embodies the Gamma Subject Matter Expert.
William Shockley. He made his coworkers and subordinates miserable at Bell Labs, then founded Shockley Semiconductor, and hired a bunch of really smart guys.
Then he let his spiteful paranoia and hunger for absolute control drive them away and destroy his company. They founded Fairchild Semiconductor, which directly led to the creation of Intel, AMD, and National Semiconductor. Silicon Valley, basically.
Dude gamma raged so hard he created modern computing by kicking himself in the balls.
Gammas in authority: not even once.
Hell, I wonder if it would be eucivic to have identified gammas all rounded up and forced to live in a segregated area, apart from the rest of society. Like blacks. But that's probably impractical.
Vox, I'm picturing your next music project: Gamma Rap by Gammas with Attitude.
Straight out the suburbs, crazy motherfucker named Wage Cube
From the gang called Gammas With Attitude
When I'm called off, 'pull fedora off
Draw katana, and bodies are hauled off
You too, boy, if ya fuck with me
Reddit Mods are gonna hafta come and get me
Off yo ass, that's how I'm goin out
For the Alpha motherfuckers that's showin out
Sorry if its off topic. The title of the post had me thinking of NWA.
Have a Blessed Sunday
What occupational environment is truly best for a gamma? Would gammas thrive best in vocations that require little teamwork and thus where hierarchies are weak? The arts are one example.
Gammas really thrive in any non profit environment. Any overhead department in a P&L organization. Any government agency, any nonprofit organization, including religious, universities, etc.
Hierarchy can be strong or weak, big or small. The key is money comes no matter what they do, universities are prime examples. A P&L organization routinely goes bankrupt while the others seem to go on and on and if they do mange to fail the gamma jumps on another non profit lifeboat.
Practically speaking, what differetiates alpha aggression from gamma aggression in these types of situations?
Think of the aggression displayed by Maximus towards Commodus - open, public, defiant, risking his own life. Now think of the aggression Commodus had towards Maximus - secret, hidden, cowardly, and all designed to give him plausible deniability and avoid any personal risk.
What Black and B. Orpington say. And look for women and men following the alpha. Gammas haven't got any support with what they do.
Alpha will gather support wearing the 'wrong' and low-ranking clothes. Gamma can't even when his clothes are flawless.
Humorous but not too far off, I think:
An alpha is willing to punch you in the face.
A gamma desperately wants to socially engineer a plausibly-deniable situation where somebody - anybody - else will punch you in the face. And then reap the spoils for himself.
I'll give it a go: Alpha aggression will be directed openly towards those challenging him and will stop with the threat is neutralized. Gamma aggression will be overly technical/wall-of-text and weasel-y. Often pre-rehearsed in their head with the whole group clapping at the end because of how right they are. Will simmer endlessly in the background.
In my personal observations, a gamma is often mistaken at first for special and higher status by average people, because of his subject matter expertise and intelligence. It's not until the sparkle wears off that his true low status shows through. Has anyone else observed this?
All the time. It's especially sharp when a woman buys into it than when men do. I think in part that's because men can just quietly exclude a gamma from their group. But also, the men don't date the gammas, so there's a lot less emotional involvement.
Back in the 90s, when I was living and working in the section 8 neighborhoods, I saw this a lot. A woman would get with a guy, but soon after drop him and be revulsed even thinking about him. This happened with women ranging from high school girls to middle aged women. It seemed to be worst at the far ends of the age range, the girls because they were young and inexperienced, and the women in their later 30s and 40s at the time (1990s) because, well, Boomer. Boomer women were absolutely horrible with this.
The fact that a woman could get with a gamma and not know it was somewhat understandable - the first time. The fact that even after this guy repeatedly showed his gamma colors, or had a public meltdown* or whatever, some other woman, fully aware of all this, would take up with him. That's the part I could never figure out.
Well, except for a few cases where the gamma had a good paying job and the woman had kids to support. But in those cases, it seemed like everyone knew what was going on, except for the gamma himself. Why the women with no kids did this, I have no idea.
* I still remember late one night while sweeping the parking lot outside work, a short local gamma guy was up on the sidewalk on the pay phone. He literally degenerated from complimentary to aggressively shouting into the phone while calling a woman he had gone out with earlier in the evening. Took less than 5 minutes. I wasn't trying to listen, but on a quiet summer night like that you could hear this from at least 2 blocks away.
im usualy not conflict avoidant at work but right now im a supervisor on a construction site and i believe i have a dangerous gamma on my crew.
He blurts out stupid comments/questions, subverts the chain of command, does things contrary to whats hes explicitly ordered multiple times a day BUT he is protected by both his position as shop steward and being a local versus traveler.
So despite my attempts behind the scenes to remove him, he remains.
this man is huge 6ft 340 and served 10 yrs for manslaughter over killing rival drug dealer. Hes a literal MAD TRAPPER having killed thousands of fur animals.
He gives me Ted Kazinski vibes.
In a futile attempt to remove him i quietly asked his biggest haters on my crew if they would sign paperwork to remove him and they all declined and were afraid to put the intials to anything to remove him.
SO at best i am making sure he never gets a steward position again so he can be fired more easily in the future.
He should have been executed.
MAYBE so but hard to argue with his manifesto;
The central thesis of Ted Kaczynski's manifesto, Industrial Society and Its Future, is that the Industrial Revolution and subsequent technological progress have been a disaster for the human race, fundamentally incompatible with human freedom and dignity.
Core Arguments
Technology as an Autonomous System Kaczynski argues that technology is not a neutral tool but an autonomous, self-perpetuating system that dictates human behavior rather than serving human needs. He posits a "technological imperative": once a technology is introduced, it inevitably expands and forces society to adapt to it, regardless of negative consequences. Humans must conform to the requirements of the machine, leading to the erosion of individual autonomy.
Psychological Suffering and the "Power Process" The manifesto contends that modern society causes widespread psychological suffering by depriving individuals of the "power process"—the innate human need to go through the cycle of goal-setting, effort, and achievement. In industrial society, survival is guaranteed by the system, leaving people with empty lives. To cope, individuals engage in "surrogate activities" (such as consumerism, career climbing, or activism) which provide artificial goals but fail to satisfy the deep psychological need for genuine autonomy and connection with nature.
Impossibility of Reform A critical pillar of his thesis is that the industrial-technological system cannot be reformed to preserve freedom. Because the system requires strict regulation and predictability to function, it must inevitably restrict human behavior and suppress dissent. Kaczynski asserts that attempts to modify the system from within are futile; the only solution is the complete collapse of the industrial system to allow a return to small-scale, self-sufficient communities living close to nature.
Critique of Leftism Kaczynski devotes significant attention to criticizing modern "leftism," which he defines not just as a political ideology but as a psychological phenomenon driven by feelings of inferiority and "oversocialization." He argues that leftist movements inadvertently strengthen the technological system by focusing on social grievances that distract from the primary threat: technology itself.
I was referring to the gamma at your job, not Ted Kaczynski, although I think he should have been too.
Conflict is the air we breathe.
Seeing the same dynamics up close elsewhere, though it’s a case of job not done rather than a coup. Solution is exactly as Vox describes. Deltas keep finding any excuse at all not to do the obvious.
Dad's a Bravo. He impressed the lesson very clearly that you never flinch from firing people, pay the qualified more than the competition, identify talent, and the thing will run without you. Which I then saw happen.
I understand where the Delta endless excuses thing comes from, but it's tough to watch.
Amelioration isn't ideal, but sometimes it's all you've got in the now. How would you identify a Delta who didn't have this weakness under pressure, if your pool didn't have the Bravo it needed? Does a martial arts background help offset this? Irish/ Italian/ Jewish background? Anyone here seen a Delta break this? If so, do you know what helped?
My whole life I’ve worked for only one alpha and he was thrown under the bus by gammas and fired.
It's sounds all too painfully obvious that gammas are detrimental to any organization. They're probably more dangerous than any competent business competitor. Gammas seem to spend more time orchestrating carnage inside the group than to external rivals. Functionally, there's no difference between a gamma and someone hired to infiltrate a company for purposes of corporate espionage. The latter might just be a bit more competent.
Troublemakers only get stronger the longer you allow, and justify, their behavior. Better to endure the relatively small amount of pain at the start then having to endure the longer lasting pain once they've been allowed to go on for any length of time.
It really just boils down to: do you want to suffer pain now, or later? Because either way, there will be pain. That's just how it is with Gammas.
“People in the late ‘80s thought NWA were alarming, but the reality is that few things are more terrifying than a Gamma With Authority in an organization.”
What’s a NWA?
The gangsta rap group Niggaz Wit Attitudes, who caused quite the stir when they broke out back in the day.
I worked under a Gamma for the last decade, and he did quite a bit of damage to our organization. I'm one of 5 department heads who reported to him directly. He was such a roadblock that we ended up finding ways to work around him as much as possible to get things done.
One of the other department heads is probably an Alpha. He's highly competent, good looking, motivated, hot younger wife, etc. He would always make good suggestions and ask pertinent questions in meetings, which our Gamma boss found extremely threatening. So he would constantly try to establish dominance over the Alpha, dismiss any suggestions he made, shut him down whenever he asked a question, and eventually ended up banning him from meetings altogether.
Eventually, it all caught up to him, and they eliminated his position a few months ago. But on his way out the door, he made sure to advise our new boss to shoot down certain suggestions the Alpha would make, thereby making one final attempt to dominate him from beyond the grave, so to speak.
Been in that position.
Remove the Gamma now, by majority vote
Second, Secretary immediately goes to bank with approved and signed resolution to remove, requiring an immediate removal of Gamma from account signatures, revocation of his passwords, credentials, citing malevolent backlash. Get forms to update signature cards. Don't wait.
Third, Secretary contacts Secretary of State or whichever state office that handles incorporation. Discuss with them how to return to not-for-profit from an unauthorized change to charitable non-profit, note that the organization never approved such change from meeting minutes. May also require discussion with IRS to change sub-chapters.
Fourth, announce to the membership and donors that the Treasurer was removed for inability to perform functions of the office. Anyone asking out of misguided sympathy can be told that the organization's bills weren't being paid on time. Usually enough to shut up everyone but the remaining personal acquaintance. Select a competent and trusted Delta as Treasurer.
Move on. This blows over within a year. The additional steps cut out any possible web of rules-lawyering, lying, hidden power levers, or playing for sympathy.
Been there, don't like seeing repeats.
Looking back, did you notice any signs during the hiring interview that "your gamma" was in fact a gamma?
Volunterr position, voted on by organization. Some signs, but at the time it was a tossup of low Delta/high Gamma. Competent at Delta things. had purchase authority for physical plant stuff. Over time and stress, Gamma emerged, that he was telling different stories to other people, and always right on questionable stuff for "reasons." Came to an emotional "my way or I quit" call. Accepted resignation and set of keys, then we re-keyed exteriors and masters immediately.
The position had changed to needing Bravo or high Delta to manage maintenance or repair by others. Different SME needs, and ability to delegate and monitor.
Must suck to be one of those guys. I can’t imagine caring enough. Why can’t people just go to the beach or read books or talk to a girl?
Can confirm.
Been in three situations where I had to weigh the cost of 'considerable pain'.
In one, I had all the authority in the world and was armed with SSH knowledge. I never backed down and acted quickly. Took a totally shit crew to an effective one. This took ruthless extermination of 'critical challengers' multiple times.
The other two? I was a subordinate, a newbie in a new industry each time. Still SSH aware, but fearful of blowback if I stepped out of line.
I learned very little by mentorship, had to learn most things myself and was in constant conflict anyways. It never stopped until I took on the 'considerable pain'.
Always take the considerable pain. It won't always be a gamma who you have to fight, but you will have to fight.
Even if you've done it before. Even if people treat you well and usually avoid conflict with you. It will pop up to test you.
"Embrace the suck."
I need that on a big plaque for my desk.
An elder in my church (female) said it to me this way: "You're just gonna have to deal with it in life. So handle it."
"I learned very little by mentorship, had to learn most things myself and was in constant conflict anyways. It never stopped until I took on the 'considerable pain'."
At this point I wonder if "mentorship" is simply a myth. No different than unicorns. It's a downright struggle session to get more seasoned employees to show new people the most basic of work operations.
Glad to see I'm not the only one with this frustration.
It's especially disheartening when they do teach you a thing or two and then just... Stop.
Just gotta jump in yourself when its appropriate and advocate for others when you can.
I think Bravos mentor. Deltas have to be told what to teach as an assigned task but if not done carefully, or they aren't secure in their role, you can spook them into thinking they are being replaced. Gammas pretend to teach but leave out critical information to sabotage the new person and play the rescuing hero. Alphas kinda teach with general advice but are usually more focused on talking about what they did.
Seconded. As long as you learn from the errors, it was never a waste.