If women saying that "I love a man that washes dishes and cleans the house" were true. Janitors and restaurant busboys would be beating back all the thirsty ho's.
This is why the silly stuff that Mystery did worked - it got him on the map and out of the crowd. From there he could just do his thing. Now, being charismatic and charming, good looking, and all that help after getting noticed. But you have to get noticed. When society tells even 2's and 3's women that they can get 8's in men, and they see thirsty men submissive and desperate enough that it sometimes happens - they're going to act that way! They're going to make choices accordingly.
It isn't till fathers tell them it's a bunch of BS that it's going to stop.
Using marketing as an analogy is extremely helpful here. I had the opportunity to visit the headquarters of Coca-Cola not too long ago, and the people there told me that Coke actually isn’t a beverage company. It’s a marketing company. The actual product was mastered over a century ago. Coke is Coke. Now they put almost all of their time and effort towards marketing, trying to sell it to as many people as possible. New flavor combinations, promotional campaigns, partnerships, etc. to reach new customers.
The same goes with men trying to attract a woman. The guy pretty much is who he is, with some allowance for personal improvement. His challenge then is to market himself as a desirable product to as many women as possible to increase his chances of attracting the woman he desires the most. The man must work to differentiate himself from other men as much as possible so he isn’t lumped in with the other average dudes in the eyes of the woman he likes.
Hoe Math calls it the "Not People Zone" and women sometimes literally don't see them. If a girl says "date nerds, they are great!" She inevitably means "hot nerds".
Fitness and appearance aren't the only way to get out of that zone. If you are confident, charming, and successful (compared to her other immediate options) that also works. I mean, Neil Strauss is not especially attractive or built. But gaining muscle, losing fat, and having decent grooming are probably the most accessible tools for most guys.
A couple of weeks ago or so I watched an episode of Impractical Jokers with my son. One of the guys, Q, was working in a coffee shop behind the counter. Two teenage girls (maybe 15, 16 or so) come in, talk to him and order their stuff and take a seat. Then a man comes in, recognizes Q, because he is a fan of the show and talks to him about it. The two girls hear the conversation from across the room and suddenly they do recognize him, they are also fans of the show. They literally did not see him before. He turned from a non-person to a person the very instant they were made aware of the fact that he's famous.
Yes, you are right. But this is not what my post was about. It was about women not seeing you as a member of the same species because of status. The girls didn't recognize him, because they didn't even look at him. He was a random hobo behind the counter at a coffee shop working for minimum wage. Why should they recognize his existence?
Love your amazing work! Outstanding, I translated some of the comics to send to my brazilian friends that don't speak english and have no idea of the SSH and they still find that you always hit the nail on the head!
Men's rating system: "things I don't like and things I like."
Women's rating system: "things I don't like and things I don't like."
A woman's inner sanctum is truly a hell. It would suggest that focusing on gratitude and things you enjoy while ignoring the rest is more masculine. Which would lead one to conclude that all Alpha Males find hypergamouse very entertaining and edifying.
Working out/being fit and strong is the baseline. Below that, you are "not people", to steal a HoeMaphorism, but it's more than that. Lacey says that other things are more important, like having a job or being able to fix a sink. Well, how do you expect to be able to do those things if you are weak? With all respect, she's awesome, but has she ever fixed a sink? "Girls may like muscles, but it's much more attractive to [be able to do something that requires muscles]". That's all I hear when women make the obviously silly claim that they don't really care about muscles.
All of the things you want to do in life, personal goals, religious goals, women-related goals, all of them require strength and endurance, so lift, lose fat, get fit.
All of that is true apart from Vox's advice that getting fit and strong is the quickest and best way to get you noticed and therefore, in the game.
"Girls are superficial and want you to be muscular and good looking" is probably decent starter advice for the Deltas/Gammas/Omegas who want to level up.
Hit the weights, gentlemen. And always shower, Omegas.
You’d think most guys would understand this on some level. Men like pretty women, so doesn’t it follow that women also like handsome men? That to attract a women’s attention, it helps to make oneself handsome?
You must be tall yourself. Most women take it as a given that men are taller than them. If I see a woman that is less than half a foot shorter than me she stands out.
It's not about his height or her list of everything else. It's about filtering out guys with the wrong attitude.
It's like those ads for jobs. There are ads for hiring someone skilled in a programming language requiring 5 years of experience in it. While the language has only existed for 3 years. If the guy is phased out by her delusional comment, then he is not the guy.
Nothing wrong with that. Men under 6ft tall tend to be self-conscious about their height. That's why you don't see 6'4" men unfolding themselves out of a Miata; they can't get their legs under the steering wheel.
The note about the attractiveness graph, is that vast majority of women probably think exactly that, the 3s same as the 10s. Even though the 3s hardly get even a little of the attention that 5s get. So the attractiveness graph is not a graph of actual game success in person.
But definitely working out will improve your male attractiveness rating, and your game success probability.
I thought the woman attractiveness graph just looks like the top two thirds of the men's as of to Imply that they don't even notice a man below a 6 or so.
In Hoe Math's videos on this subject, he just covers up all the men 6 and below with a bar of white people to show they are "not people" to women, and therefore invisible as dating prospects.
Something like a janitor in the background of an office, that your eyes just scan over while looking for your coworkers.
His contention is that the graphs look more similar once a woman gets to know a gut, but the unknown men are looked at this way, which is most of dating since we don't have society functions to get people to know each other over their lives.
Huh, do you have a link to that video? This is a good post because solipsism is a concept I've been struggling to grasp but I think this has cleared it up quite a bit for me.
It's one of his recurring moves, as he works around his notebooks and stuff, so I'm going to give you his Magnum Opus instead, which is his explanation of the difference between what men and women want from a relationship:
It might use that thing I mentioned, but it goes into a lot more detail on what women want from men, and how they normally aren't getting enough of the things they really want (max = bad boy+muscles on top of someone who is respectable and invests in her).
That's an interesting point. However, the male data does not seem to show that impact at all. I certainly can't be the only man who would have excluded certain demographics from the menu.
My guess is then that either they showed each subject only their preferred demos or made it clear that you are not going to be asked to date them, just rate them. To be "scientific" I suspect they only showed preferred demos.
I'm sure all men have a bar, below which they will not date, but only the top 19% have a bar that's noticeable to the world, while everyone else has a bar so low that it might as well not exist.
0% Alpha/Sigma. They would have no need to create a profile; but the women rating would know they exist. The percentage of Bravos and higher Deltas and Gammas would likewise be reduced.
This is just physical appearance -- the SSH is behavior though. While not completely disassociated I don't think you can interpret the results this way.
Yeah, I think women are fairly accurate in assessing the fractions of alpha/sigma/bravo, but I think they're way overestimating the fraction of gammas and omegas. I don't think more than about 10% of the population total is in those two brackets, maybe less. But I guess they're the ones that get to decide who is most unattractive to them, not me.
I definitely think there's a political effect and segregation going on, and that overall the percentages are more or less correct.
Due to my specific idiosyncracies and interests, I hung out in liberal, left-wing venues for most of my adult life until COVID, and I'd say that both Gamma and Omega are definitely much more of a presence there. By contrast, in the Christian venues I've frequented more recently, the men are solidly majority Delta. There are a few Gammas, but they're not respected and often end up moving on and cooking up their own weird beliefs.
Basically, Gammas on the right tend to be shunted off out of society to gripe on the Internet, where I imagine they form much of the right-wing troll presence that liberals love to complain about, while those on the left are welcomed and integrated.
"The Right" is about social order, everywhere. So they inevitably venerate a hierarchy of some sort. Gammas think they are better than perceived. So they are not a good fit. Now grifters, sure they can be Gamma.
Men, quit worrying about what women think of you. Stay fit, dress well and smell good. Of the three, staying fit throughout your life pays off in ways that cannot be easily calculated. Everything about it is a win.
When you’re in your 20s lots of guys are fit, but the longer you stay on the fitness train the easier it will be to stay on top. 50+ men who have maintained a visibly superior level of fitness to the average man is practically a God on the mount. You don’t have to worry about what women think of you. You’ll know. Everyone, including other men, will respect you.
Make a plan, commit, show up without fail, and do the work. Not because you care about what people think of you, but because you care what you think of you. Do it for you, but leave a legacy.
Concur. Like to add, the payoff for the time staying in shape pays off big time. Going beyond the 50+, I’m 70+, wife and I still work out. It keeps the body and mind in shape. Over 25% of my age is already deceased, some literally dropped dead, most of the rest have fallen into the clutches of the pharmaceutical-medical industrial complex. Working out keeps one away from their clutches. Seeing what being out of shape does over the decades makes me glad we both took the time and effort to stay fit. I was always a runner, bicyclist by financial necessity, after marriage we both were into cross country skiing, cycling,and jogging. Kids came alone the cross country skiing faded but soccer replaced it. Exercise should be part of a relationship. Stay fit, never stop. Helps keep a great attitude.
See some at the gym who are there because they got scared; grossly overweight, strokes, heart issues, diabetes, etc., never been in a gym before and it shows. They don’t stick with it. See others with very serious conditions who constantly work hard as it improves the quality of their lives. Our current gym is not a hard core fitness gym, so the younger ones don’t go for the burn, but at least they are there. Loved our previous hard core gym (followed our trainer) but old folks got strange looks when going there as it was a too serious competitive body builder gym, trophies and photos everywhere, switched to a generic workout gym within walking distance. Never underestimate the benefits of a couple working out together.
A few hours ago, my wife and I were out for our Sunday brunch at a local sports bar that we frequent for this purpose. This place is usually pretty crowded and today was no exception. As the waitress led us to our table in the back, we walked past two bar height tables of mostly women. Mostly overweight women. As we passed the table, I just quickly glance out of the side of my eye them, and every single one of them was looking at me and smiling. I didn’t react.
Once we sat down, my wife immediately asked me if I saw the two tables of women when we came in.
Her: Did you see that table of fat girls? They were all smiling at me.
Me: I didn’t notice
I told her that they were probably hating on her because she’s hot. She pretended to not know what I was talking about.
Walk back out in search of the correct room. If I'm lost, I'd just go to the closest woman who appeared to have a clue and ask where the X event is being held.
Take a good long hard look at those charts boys. While we're grunting and sweating pumping that iron, all a woman has to do to do to get a man is simply make a good casserole or just be plain be civil once in awhile. The funny thing is, they consider it a big effort. Hilarious.
Guys, don’t despair over the “Hoe Math” chart. Our scales are different because we are different. It can work to your advantage once she’s married to you.
What I mean- my husband doesn’t have his head on a swivel, but his Attractiveness Chart has remained the same curve. He knows a pretty face and nice bewba when he sees them. Myself- some sort of blinders went up around 3 years into our marriage. My Attractiveness chart is pretty much 0 except for the Not Attractive column. If the man is obviously attractive, I naturally assume he’s gay. Doesn’t even blip the heartbeat at all.
The average woman is 15 minutes away from a sexual encounter, should she choose. The average man is several weeks away from one should he choose. Totally different worlds.
If women saying that "I love a man that washes dishes and cleans the house" were true. Janitors and restaurant busboys would be beating back all the thirsty ho's.
They don't. So women are deluded.
This is why the silly stuff that Mystery did worked - it got him on the map and out of the crowd. From there he could just do his thing. Now, being charismatic and charming, good looking, and all that help after getting noticed. But you have to get noticed. When society tells even 2's and 3's women that they can get 8's in men, and they see thirsty men submissive and desperate enough that it sometimes happens - they're going to act that way! They're going to make choices accordingly.
It isn't till fathers tell them it's a bunch of BS that it's going to stop.
Using marketing as an analogy is extremely helpful here. I had the opportunity to visit the headquarters of Coca-Cola not too long ago, and the people there told me that Coke actually isn’t a beverage company. It’s a marketing company. The actual product was mastered over a century ago. Coke is Coke. Now they put almost all of their time and effort towards marketing, trying to sell it to as many people as possible. New flavor combinations, promotional campaigns, partnerships, etc. to reach new customers.
The same goes with men trying to attract a woman. The guy pretty much is who he is, with some allowance for personal improvement. His challenge then is to market himself as a desirable product to as many women as possible to increase his chances of attracting the woman he desires the most. The man must work to differentiate himself from other men as much as possible so he isn’t lumped in with the other average dudes in the eyes of the woman he likes.
Hoe Math calls it the "Not People Zone" and women sometimes literally don't see them. If a girl says "date nerds, they are great!" She inevitably means "hot nerds".
Fitness and appearance aren't the only way to get out of that zone. If you are confident, charming, and successful (compared to her other immediate options) that also works. I mean, Neil Strauss is not especially attractive or built. But gaining muscle, losing fat, and having decent grooming are probably the most accessible tools for most guys.
A couple of weeks ago or so I watched an episode of Impractical Jokers with my son. One of the guys, Q, was working in a coffee shop behind the counter. Two teenage girls (maybe 15, 16 or so) come in, talk to him and order their stuff and take a seat. Then a man comes in, recognizes Q, because he is a fan of the show and talks to him about it. The two girls hear the conversation from across the room and suddenly they do recognize him, they are also fans of the show. They literally did not see him before. He turned from a non-person to a person the very instant they were made aware of the fact that he's famous.
This excellently shows the downsides of fame, particularly for those with niche fame.
Strangers rate those with unrecognized fame according to their looks.
Thus, only improving looks reliably attracts female attention.
Even a charismatic personality fails when the woman blatantly ignores them.
Yes, you are right. But this is not what my post was about. It was about women not seeing you as a member of the same species because of status. The girls didn't recognize him, because they didn't even look at him. He was a random hobo behind the counter at a coffee shop working for minimum wage. Why should they recognize his existence?
Hey
Hey
Love your amazing work! Outstanding, I translated some of the comics to send to my brazilian friends that don't speak english and have no idea of the SSH and they still find that you always hit the nail on the head!
Aw, thanks.
Men's rating system: "things I don't like and things I like."
Women's rating system: "things I don't like and things I don't like."
A woman's inner sanctum is truly a hell. It would suggest that focusing on gratitude and things you enjoy while ignoring the rest is more masculine. Which would lead one to conclude that all Alpha Males find hypergamouse very entertaining and edifying.
Working out/being fit and strong is the baseline. Below that, you are "not people", to steal a HoeMaphorism, but it's more than that. Lacey says that other things are more important, like having a job or being able to fix a sink. Well, how do you expect to be able to do those things if you are weak? With all respect, she's awesome, but has she ever fixed a sink? "Girls may like muscles, but it's much more attractive to [be able to do something that requires muscles]". That's all I hear when women make the obviously silly claim that they don't really care about muscles.
All of the things you want to do in life, personal goals, religious goals, women-related goals, all of them require strength and endurance, so lift, lose fat, get fit.
All of that is true apart from Vox's advice that getting fit and strong is the quickest and best way to get you noticed and therefore, in the game.
I did change a lightbulb once. *flex*
Hah, touche. Only counts if it was above your head, though.
"Girls are superficial and want you to be muscular and good looking" is probably decent starter advice for the Deltas/Gammas/Omegas who want to level up.
Hit the weights, gentlemen. And always shower, Omegas.
You’d think most guys would understand this on some level. Men like pretty women, so doesn’t it follow that women also like handsome men? That to attract a women’s attention, it helps to make oneself handsome?
Hmmm. I read early on on about subconscious attractors, and pretty much used them when deciding to date.
Was there a frisson when in close proximity? Did he move in interesting, coordinated ways?
Was he equally intrigued by me?
Was he taller than me?
Not sure how this fits in. Just sharing.
You must be tall yourself. Most women take it as a given that men are taller than them. If I see a woman that is less than half a foot shorter than me she stands out.
It's not about his height or her list of everything else. It's about filtering out guys with the wrong attitude.
It's like those ads for jobs. There are ads for hiring someone skilled in a programming language requiring 5 years of experience in it. While the language has only existed for 3 years. If the guy is phased out by her delusional comment, then he is not the guy.
5’8. I couldn’t date a man shorter than me in 2” heels.
Seems wrong, but it is very important. 🥴
Nothing wrong with that. Men under 6ft tall tend to be self-conscious about their height. That's why you don't see 6'4" men unfolding themselves out of a Miata; they can't get their legs under the steering wheel.
The note about the attractiveness graph, is that vast majority of women probably think exactly that, the 3s same as the 10s. Even though the 3s hardly get even a little of the attention that 5s get. So the attractiveness graph is not a graph of actual game success in person.
But definitely working out will improve your male attractiveness rating, and your game success probability.
I thought the woman attractiveness graph just looks like the top two thirds of the men's as of to Imply that they don't even notice a man below a 6 or so.
In Hoe Math's videos on this subject, he just covers up all the men 6 and below with a bar of white people to show they are "not people" to women, and therefore invisible as dating prospects.
Something like a janitor in the background of an office, that your eyes just scan over while looking for your coworkers.
His contention is that the graphs look more similar once a woman gets to know a gut, but the unknown men are looked at this way, which is most of dating since we don't have society functions to get people to know each other over their lives.
Huh, do you have a link to that video? This is a good post because solipsism is a concept I've been struggling to grasp but I think this has cleared it up quite a bit for me.
It's one of his recurring moves, as he works around his notebooks and stuff, so I'm going to give you his Magnum Opus instead, which is his explanation of the difference between what men and women want from a relationship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4aMiAesXjE
It might use that thing I mentioned, but it goes into a lot more detail on what women want from men, and how they normally aren't getting enough of the things they really want (max = bad boy+muscles on top of someone who is respectable and invests in her).
Thanks for that, I've never seen this guy before
That's an interesting point. However, the male data does not seem to show that impact at all. I certainly can't be the only man who would have excluded certain demographics from the menu.
My guess is then that either they showed each subject only their preferred demos or made it clear that you are not going to be asked to date them, just rate them. To be "scientific" I suspect they only showed preferred demos.
I'm sure all men have a bar, below which they will not date, but only the top 19% have a bar that's noticeable to the world, while everyone else has a bar so low that it might as well not exist.
"women have a much more Pareto-style perspective, with a bar that only 17 percent of men are capable of passing."
Roughly speaking, we can read the graph as:
7% Alpha/Sigma
12% Bravo
23% High Delta
31% Low Delta
27% Gamma/Omega
0% Alpha/Sigma. They would have no need to create a profile; but the women rating would know they exist. The percentage of Bravos and higher Deltas and Gammas would likewise be reduced.
This is just physical appearance -- the SSH is behavior though. While not completely disassociated I don't think you can interpret the results this way.
I took it to be more
7% Alpha/Sigma
12% High Bravo
23% Bravo
31% High Delta
27% Low Delta
Since the woman's graph looks like the top two thirds or so of the men's as if to imply they don't notice the bottom third
Except this was a survey of women assessing male profiles on okcupid.
It was an attempt at rye humour
Yeah, I think women are fairly accurate in assessing the fractions of alpha/sigma/bravo, but I think they're way overestimating the fraction of gammas and omegas. I don't think more than about 10% of the population total is in those two brackets, maybe less. But I guess they're the ones that get to decide who is most unattractive to them, not me.
Lot's of deltas are invisible to them.
As are 6’s and below to most males.
A lot of deltas date into 3-5s pretty regularly it appears.
Even more will sleep with them if their friends wont find out.
I definitely think there's a political effect and segregation going on, and that overall the percentages are more or less correct.
Due to my specific idiosyncracies and interests, I hung out in liberal, left-wing venues for most of my adult life until COVID, and I'd say that both Gamma and Omega are definitely much more of a presence there. By contrast, in the Christian venues I've frequented more recently, the men are solidly majority Delta. There are a few Gammas, but they're not respected and often end up moving on and cooking up their own weird beliefs.
Basically, Gammas on the right tend to be shunted off out of society to gripe on the Internet, where I imagine they form much of the right-wing troll presence that liberals love to complain about, while those on the left are welcomed and integrated.
Sure would be useful to know how to *properly* integrate Gammas in the right wing, given that there are so many of them.
"The Right" is about social order, everywhere. So they inevitably venerate a hierarchy of some sort. Gammas think they are better than perceived. So they are not a good fit. Now grifters, sure they can be Gamma.
Discipline and accountability.
Iron sharpens iron and they will learn to behave inpublic or wash out.
Men, quit worrying about what women think of you. Stay fit, dress well and smell good. Of the three, staying fit throughout your life pays off in ways that cannot be easily calculated. Everything about it is a win.
When you’re in your 20s lots of guys are fit, but the longer you stay on the fitness train the easier it will be to stay on top. 50+ men who have maintained a visibly superior level of fitness to the average man is practically a God on the mount. You don’t have to worry about what women think of you. You’ll know. Everyone, including other men, will respect you.
Make a plan, commit, show up without fail, and do the work. Not because you care about what people think of you, but because you care what you think of you. Do it for you, but leave a legacy.
Concur. Like to add, the payoff for the time staying in shape pays off big time. Going beyond the 50+, I’m 70+, wife and I still work out. It keeps the body and mind in shape. Over 25% of my age is already deceased, some literally dropped dead, most of the rest have fallen into the clutches of the pharmaceutical-medical industrial complex. Working out keeps one away from their clutches. Seeing what being out of shape does over the decades makes me glad we both took the time and effort to stay fit. I was always a runner, bicyclist by financial necessity, after marriage we both were into cross country skiing, cycling,and jogging. Kids came alone the cross country skiing faded but soccer replaced it. Exercise should be part of a relationship. Stay fit, never stop. Helps keep a great attitude.
See some at the gym who are there because they got scared; grossly overweight, strokes, heart issues, diabetes, etc., never been in a gym before and it shows. They don’t stick with it. See others with very serious conditions who constantly work hard as it improves the quality of their lives. Our current gym is not a hard core fitness gym, so the younger ones don’t go for the burn, but at least they are there. Loved our previous hard core gym (followed our trainer) but old folks got strange looks when going there as it was a too serious competitive body builder gym, trophies and photos everywhere, switched to a generic workout gym within walking distance. Never underestimate the benefits of a couple working out together.
This is the comment of the week.
Real world anecdote follow up.
A few hours ago, my wife and I were out for our Sunday brunch at a local sports bar that we frequent for this purpose. This place is usually pretty crowded and today was no exception. As the waitress led us to our table in the back, we walked past two bar height tables of mostly women. Mostly overweight women. As we passed the table, I just quickly glance out of the side of my eye them, and every single one of them was looking at me and smiling. I didn’t react.
Once we sat down, my wife immediately asked me if I saw the two tables of women when we came in.
Her: Did you see that table of fat girls? They were all smiling at me.
Me: I didn’t notice
I told her that they were probably hating on her because she’s hot. She pretended to not know what I was talking about.
A man's pysique is marketing. If you are a top grade handy man but look like a star bellied sneech, you're not gunna attract the ladies.
Sylvester McMonkey McBean to the rescue!
When women say Dad Bod, they mean guys like Chris Pratt between movies when he's been eating more.
Which is accurate to say women aren't requiring of a six pack. They just expect you to be able to pick them up.
The man being able to control his emotions is the most important one for me. I am already emotional, I don’t need a crying, Hysterical man.
The picture of the invisible man in the room full of supermodels at round tables got me thinking:
Vox, what would you do if you happened to walk into that room by mistake, and you don’t know anyone?
I know exactly what my very Delta response would be: shock, confusion, delight, and having no idea where to look or who to talk to.
Walk back out in search of the correct room. If I'm lost, I'd just go to the closest woman who appeared to have a clue and ask where the X event is being held.
Take a good long hard look at those charts boys. While we're grunting and sweating pumping that iron, all a woman has to do to do to get a man is simply make a good casserole or just be plain be civil once in awhile. The funny thing is, they consider it a big effort. Hilarious.
Guys, don’t despair over the “Hoe Math” chart. Our scales are different because we are different. It can work to your advantage once she’s married to you.
What I mean- my husband doesn’t have his head on a swivel, but his Attractiveness Chart has remained the same curve. He knows a pretty face and nice bewba when he sees them. Myself- some sort of blinders went up around 3 years into our marriage. My Attractiveness chart is pretty much 0 except for the Not Attractive column. If the man is obviously attractive, I naturally assume he’s gay. Doesn’t even blip the heartbeat at all.
The average woman is 15 minutes away from a sexual encounter, should she choose. The average man is several weeks away from one should he choose. Totally different worlds.
For a woman, the sexual encounter is a path toward the goal. For a man, the sexual encounter is the goal.
And the corollary: men marry when they want, women marry when they can