Responding to self-protection and discernment with retard blather about “empathy” is creep self-identification. Irritating in the moment, but there’s always value in knowing who is worthy of shunning and contempt.
Women’s difficulty with saying “no” is hard for a man to fathom (I couldn’t understand why many abused wives stayed in the relationship, even returning to a violent husband), but the explanations here in the post and comments make sense: it’s hard-wired into their biology for survival reasons.
"Women are also wired to raise babies, so we are fine tuned for reception and interpretation of non-verbal queues." I wished this reality sunk in a bit more with people generally, but the world is so upside down it's been written off as a sexist trope.
Great breakdown of something obvious to everyone except the Gammas. Wikipedia did their level best to keep any mention of Gaiman's proclivities off the page, but finally there is a one word line that has yet to be removed:
"In 2024, four women accused Gaiman of sexual assault and abuse, with one accusation dating back to 1986."
This is probably the best way to distinguish gamma from low delta tbh. Gammas look for excuses to cross boundaries. If anything deltas tend to be a bit too overly concerned about making sure they aren’t doing that. The hover hand during a photo, ect.
Yes, it reeks of lack of self confidence. But if you actually lack self confidence or are low status then the hand contact is going to be gross and creepy, a cheap grope rather than a flirtatious squeeze. It's all situational. Hover hand guys likely know they're lower status on some level. Confidence that isn't backed up by desirability is awful and creepy, off putting. If she doesn't want you to touch her the hover hand is better.
Well put. Empathy is not a female feature. The reason is clearly articulated: women often bear the burden of poor reproductive choices. This, in turn, means they become pragmatic in their approach and filtering gammatudes.
I finally understand several interactions that have occurred over the years with a number of male friends/acquaintances. I never really understand these guys and why they were the way they were, why they behaved the way they did toward me and why things went down so badly, but now that I can recognise that they were gammas, the puzzle pieces fit together perfectly. Holy cow. But now I can better recognise the pattern.
When I was in my 20s I was really into the swing dancing scene in my city (east coast swing, lindy hop, &c). General etiquette with swing dancing is you typically dance with anybody, regardless of skill level. If a guy comes up to you and asks you to dance, you typically say yes unless you're really tired or whatever or have some other reason to not dance. Other etiquette includes not criticizing somebody's dancing while you're dancing with them, and if you want to talk with them while dancing just keep it too light general social talk. You also don't try dominating somebody, don't keep asking them to dance over and over again. Plus if somebody says no don't take a personally.
So one night I was outside dancing with friends and this guy asked me to dance and I said yes. He wasn't that great at dancing but I was doing my best to make a not great answer feel good about their dancing by doing my best to follow well. Hey however kept trying to correct me in my dancing. Buddy you're not a good dancer don't try to correct me. The reason I'm not dancing well is because you're not good at leading. This is why you don't try to criticize other people's dancing. Because sometimes you are the problem. So when you do this you look like a complete fool. But I'm a patient person and I'm a nice person. And I generally like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I was obviously new and had some etiquette to learn. So whatever. Not gonna learn if I don't give him opportunities, right?
Sometimes I'm too nice. Or naive.
A week later I was back and he was there again. I was taking a break and a friend of mine had been looking for a job and my company was hiring, so I was giving my friend info on that, and made sure he had my email so he could send me his resumé. This other guy was standing nearby, but I didn't think much of it. Of course I get the really weird awkward dance treatment from him, and he kept trying to dance with me more than normal, which just gets weird, so I had to feign tiredness.
But the next day I got to work, opened my email and what did I see? An email from him asking for more info on the job I was telling my friend about. Wtf, mate? I did not just hand out my email to everyone. He had been listening in/looking over our shoulders/I-have-no-idea enough to get my email address and spell it right (my name was an unconventional spelling).
I was so upset by that I didn't even know what to do.
The next time I showed up for a dance, he was there again, and I was there with my usual friend. When this guy had the nerve to ask me to dance, I just loudly said NO. I think this took him by surprise, but the next day he emailed me, telling me what a terrible person I was for refusing to dance with him, going on about how he had "danced in New York, LA, and all around the world" and I should be grateful to get to dance with him! When I forwarded that to my dance friend, he felt bad for not stepping in the night before when he saw the guy heading toward me.
The whole thing felt so bizarre. He was so creepy and it made me feel so icky.
It's really embarrassing when I look back that I didn't see it all along, but I was young and naive. Sorry for the essay:
One example that stands out was a guy I knew in college, a fellow music student. He was married, a fellow Christian, in the same department as me (I majored in composition), and we got along well. I felt safe with him, you know, like because of his position in life, we could hang out and stuff and I didn't I feel like there was any risk of impropriety, like I was more of a sister to him if you know what I mean. At that age I was always completely blind to anybody who might have been flirting with me because I tended to view myself not particularly attractive (looking back I actually was, haha, but life is funny).
This guy and I would eat lunch together, sometimes go for long drives just talking about life, theology, philosophy, geeky music stuff, and he had some marital issues so I'd give him advice on how to improve his marriage because even though I didn't have personal experience in romantic relationships, I do know what women like because I'm a woman. He was also 10 years older than me and at my age (21, I think?) it was a pretty big gap.
After a while he just started ignoring me, which was weird like he just wasn't friends with me anymore and I was like okay whatever. And then after a few months he came back to me and was like "oh my wife told me I couldn't be friends with you anymore because she said I was having any emotional affair with you." (RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG) I laughed the whole thing off and was like, "are you kidding me that's insane." To be fair to him, and I hate to say it, his wife really was kind of bitchy. She definitely contributed to their marital problems.
That summer I was home and he was still in our university town and I started getting these really sappy emails from him. Like creepy sappy. He also started attending my church which felt very intrusive in a way. I can't really quite explain why it felt that way but it just did, even though I was gone all summer. But these emails were like, basically love notes about how he wish he could bring me flowers and expressing his undying love for me and whatnot. And I was just like "how and when did I ever give the impression that saying these things to me was ever okay?"
I ended up forwarding the emails to my pastor who was a very close friend and mentor and just said I don't even know what to do about this because he's now at our church which is supposed to feel like a safe space but now I don't feel safe anymore. But I can't just be like you have to leave our church because church is for anyone, you know?
It's been over 20 years since then and I can't remember how it all ended up but I think my pastor had a talk with him about how inappropriate his behavior was, But the whole thing just made me feel so gross. I was so close to emailing his wife/ex-wife (who I also had to see not infrequently in the music department) and apologizing to her for laughing off her suspicions. Except that she had totally vilified me unfairly so I still don't like her for that. But I'm glad for her that she kicked him to the curb.
However that wasn't the end because I still had to see him most days in the music department. And I'm a forgiving kind of person or at least a let's put this behind us because we are still going to have to work together professionally kind of person.
Senior year I had to organize my own senior recital for my composition works. From a professional standpoint it made sense to join forces and extend an invitation to this same fellow to do a joint senior recital with him. He was grateful for this because it would have made things easier for both of us to do. However he couldn't seem to get his shit together and I was getting frustrated so I finally told him to get his shit together or I was going to do my senior recital alone.
He tried manipulating me by telling me that his composition professor said that I was being a bad person and that I had to let him do the recital with me or else I'd be in trouble or something like that. I'm not one to really put up with garbage like that, So I talked with my own composition professor who was head of the department and then I went to his professor and asked him if that's what he said and he said that that was a load of bullshit, said that I was absolutely doing the right thing by booting him from my recital, especially after trying to use a professor and a bunch of lies to manipulate me. It was such bad behavior that I was just done trusting that dude for anything ever again.
That following summer after graduation he "fell in love" with yet another person at my church in another completely inappropriate way. I felt bad for not warning her or any other people, but she has a strong personality and handled it fine.
Yeah. Like, I'm not sure why he joined my church unless it was because he couldn't go to his former church because of separating from his wife and my church seemed like a good option. But there were tonnes of other churches he could have joined instead.
But the whole thing, I was so naive at the time.
I mean, I still have some really great platonic relationships with men now (and my husband does with women), but I'm not blind to the creepy guys anymore. Thank goodness.
I've experienced this strange inability to say "no" before when I was trying to consciously work on my pick-up game.
I'd just gotten a crap food service job but figured I'd make the best out of it by asking the cutest girl on the line for a date to inure myself to rejection (she was quite a bit younger and way out of my league though we had a good rapport)
To my shock she said yes and we exchanged numbers and made plans to go to a movie. I was quite surprised to see her on the next shift with a diamond engagement ring! She explained that my approach was so unexpected she didn't know what to say and we had a good laugh. I had to convince her there were no hard feelings because the poor girl genuinely felt bad about it lol. Since then I've been going for the low-hanging fruit.
For a woman to have a creepometer, she has had to have experiences with creeps.
As a young girl watching Mr. Collins on screen with Elizabeth Bennet, I did not understand the manipulation he was exhibiting and I even considered Elizabeth to have been too hard on this retarded, awkward creature. He read as an immature child to me, who never admits to loving her and is just getting married because he was told to.
Today, after many real life experiences with creeps/Gammas, I relish her response. It's a response of a woman who in one scene learns that he's not listening to her answer of "no". And whether he's immature, has mental deficiency, or is a master manipulator creep makes no difference. "You couldn't make me happy" she says
She and I and many women do not want to be in the presence of, much less in relationship with a man who manipulates our "no" into "yes". CREEP is too nice a term for the EVIL that it is in practical experience.
It can be similar with us men. When I was younger, I used to think Mr. Collins as a bit of a dork but basically harmless. But the last time I saw P&P it hit me like a ton of bricks how loathsome he truly was... as in, Uriah Heep or Grima Wormtongue tier.
Thank you. As a 23 year old with autism who has had a few scary and dangerous physical incidents with gammas, (sexual assaults) I really appreciate the affirmation that I am not evil for listening to my instincts, despite my gamma of a father's pressure to date people like him.
Unfortunately, your father being a Gamma he's probably never going to stop trying to sabotage you - I know this from personal experience. You're likely better off if you stop listening to his opinions on anything, if you haven't done so already.
My mom was a skinny, fit, blonde with a small chest but a nice hour-glass shape. So, she's not a ten, but assuming she wasn't a total b**** at the time, she probably could have held out for a bravo or at least a delta. They got married when she was 19. I'd say she didn't have high enough standards. Her dad was an abusive alcoholic, she was molested as a child by someone the family knew and didn't tell anyone, and she sadly fits the bill for just repeating the cycle of abuse. She was still loving with her parents and probably just wanted out of their house. She also had very few if any friends. She told me the other girls in high school weren't nice to her. I honestly don't know how my dad got her either, but I'm guessing he just got really lucky. Must have been an act of God or something. Or, my mom was a totally different person back then. I do know that she always wanted kids and that her doctor said she had to do it young because she had some tumors cut out of her ovaries in high school. That may have created some desperation on her part.
“Don’t trust your instincts or natural reactions” is a message that is pushed across the board, not just in male-female encounters: health particularly, medicine, education and learning, food, politics, etc. “Listen to the experts! Trust the science!!” But not your own autonomous self. Because people who do are less susceptible to ideological indoctrination.
Trust the Science. The Science changed. We say that is its nature. We cannot be accountable for your damage. Also, the Experts go through revolving doors in and out of connected academia, government, firms, consulting, and if successful the board of directors of a connected firm.
"If you duck and flee instead, you are in for the long game, like Tori Amos. Some day, life will knock you down and the gamma will be there to try to take advantage."
Yes, indeed. Also, if you go for the nuclear rejection after the long game has been well established the gamma will feel betrayed, that you were lying to him and leading him on. And now you've got the gamma's unhinged emotional dysregulation to deal with, and you have no idea just how far that unhinged emotion will take him. Yes, you may only have to deal with a bigger flounce, but you may also now have a stalker and potential murderer on your hands.
Never underestimate a rejected gamma violence potential. One daughter had a boyfriend. A gamma coworker, ~10 years older he decided she was the ‘ONE’. Asked her out, rejected, yet saw her with her boyfriend at common gatherings. Her boyfriends vehicle was vandalized. Then my daughters truck (my truck) was vandalized at her apt. Twice. Police reports taken. In a family meeting wife and I were finally updated on the situation, as I was dealing with my truck damage ($ thousands) and we figured out he was the most likely culprit. Wife was very non confrontational, he’ll get it out of his system. Later the gamma actually came to our home and asked to speak to us. How he knew where we lived was very disturbing, especially as I was away on a consulting job. Wife wisely refused him entry but did talk to him in the front patio. Couple hours later she called me. Without going into specifics; he is articulate, apparently educated and intelligent yet seriously disturbed. Found out later he had a degree in Social Justice.
Daughter moved back home, security (former police officers) at her work became involved, walked her to the truck after her shift, HR was at her work was useless (can’t we all just get along, major denial, never took it seriously.) She received pages to attend patients in location where the hospital was under renovation, no patients there. Truck was damaged in her work parking lot. Took to having her drive other family vehicles to hide the truck. Couldn’t get charges filed or a PO issued; no witnesses, no evidence, no case. Finally he attacked the truck in our driveway and was caught by the covert night vision cameras I installed. Finally arrested. Due to the arrest daughter was able to obtain a PO, which he immediately violated.
Detective laid out case; multiple felonies yet given the more serious cases the county deals with he’ll get a plea offer down to nothing. However, if we pursue the serious misdemeanor charges, the city prosecutor will go for trial, no plea. I understood the system. Took the City route. He had to pay for his attorney cost (or rather mommy and daddy did) Went to trial, no plea offered. Found guilty. His attorney was extremely upset at his being sentenced to 3 years Probation for the offense: 3 years plus reimbursement of the damage to the truck. While I wanted his worthless ass in prison, an old cop advised me don’t seek prison time. He’s a vindictive loser and will meet other vindictive losers in prison. They exchange favors, someone with zero connection to us will extract revenge on us, meanwhile when he gets out he’ll have to extract revenge on some other stranger to pay off his ‘debt’. As a loner loser, without those connections he can’t do anything. Thus the probation was acceptable.
So, he lost his job, nursing license, home and moved back with his parents.
Since then recently got a DUI with jail time and other assorted police and court actions.
That's horrifying. I hope the jail time for an unrelated issue focuses his attention elsewhere, so your daughter can move on with her life without being in constant worry.
It was extremely hard listening to our daughter cry in the shower. She didn’t want to show her fear. As soon as she turned 21 she got her CCW. Bought her whatever she needed. The three years of probation did allow him to focus elsewhere. But gamma gonna gamma. Over 10 years later he is still at home (in his 40s.) Fortunately records, indicate he did get a ‘wife’ although pubic court records don’t indicate a marriage and our state isn’t a common law state. Lots of court and PD issues. When dealing with gamma nut cases keep them far, far away and be aware of what they are up to. Paid a PI to keep track of what he was up to. Money well spent. He was recently stopped near daughters work location. He was sleeping in a car. His caregivers (parents?) told PD he was under a lot of stress and having life issues and alcohol issues. They came and took him home (over 95 miles away) I still carry. Everywhere. Daughter moved on, married, kids, career, the gamma is in the past, only this dad keeps his ears on the ground and head on a swivel. This old dad keeps his eyes on the threats. They are out there.
Thank you. As any parent can tell you, just because they grow up and move on doesn’t mean you stop being their parent and watching out for them. Now I have grandkids to help protect. Even more important in todays clown world.
This reminds again that woman and men walk through the world differently. I was initially mad about the man or bear example until someone here explained about the prison experiment. Normal guys experience what woman go through when they are in prison. Being on guard all the time and constantly worried. Woman feel this way walking through a world of gammas and predators. And at least the predators are up front about it. The gamma trying to wear a girl down must be intolerable.
I've definitely had my creep alarm set off before, by a man at church. The man seemed high-status, popular, and was friendly. Maybe too friendly. He'd always greet me by name, and it seemed a bit strange for an older married man to greet a married woman that way.
I found myself wondering if he were a pedophile.
"What?!?" I rebuked myself. "How did you get to pedophile from him being friendly? Everyone else likes and trusts him!" I was a pleaser and in the habit of ignoring my gut in matters like this.
Well, a couple years later, it came out: he was a pedophile. (Only one victim as far as anyone knows.) And also he'd been abusive to his wife the entire time. He was promptly excommunicated and went to jail. I learned never to ignore my creep alarm again.
This is very enlightening. It's hard as a male to see things this way but it makes total sense. I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions for fathers to help their sons avoid becoming gammas.
Martial arts, team sports, extended wilderness camping, spending time around strong masculine male role models (e.g. father, grandfathers, uncles, etc.).
I know a man who, in his youth, was on track to becoming a Gamma. He says he was a compulsive liar. His dad tried everything to knock it out of him, warning him that liars go to hell. But even that did not move him. Then God stepped in and radically changed him with the Gospel. He immediately gave up lying and became excited to go to church and live for the Lord. He became a solid Delta, and now is a very good situational Alpha as pastor of our church. The best thing we can do is pray that God will lead our sons' hearts.
Vox has said that your influence as a parent is not as great as you imagine it to be. But perhaps never allowing your (possibly-Gamma) son to be dishonest with others or himself, and calling him out on it? Since dishonesty is one of the chief Gamma traits. Also if you can get him to play a team sport of some kind where he will learn to be part of a group of boys and learn his place and his role.
Fantastic email/post, very well explained. Frankly, it confirms the righteousness of the fatherly instinct to beat the ever-loving tar out of the Gamma who is orbiting a daughter (although it also shows me I need to do a better job training these girls to verbally beat the tar out of them on their own).
Doesn't hurt for the girls to learn some in-close techniques, either. Hopefully it never comes to that, but with these types of guys sometimes even a little fight is enough to put them off. More to the point, the right instructors will help your girls to develop the kind of body language and awareness that deters predators before anything even starts; if she carries herself with confident alertness, she reads less like prey. I'm pretty sure my predators picked me in part because they mistook my quietness for timidity.
Yes! I froze once at fifteen at a summer camp, and the guy got some of my clothes off and I had to hit him to get him to stop touching me before I could say, "No, I was serious. I don't want to have sex," for like the millionth time.
The freeze is absolutely terrifying; everything in your brain is screaming at you to get out of there, and your body might as well be paralyzed for all that you can do. Even if it's only for a moment, it feels like an eternity. Good for you for fighting back, and thank goodness you were able to get out of there!
Solid piece, with a Money Quote. Not just with gammas, nor limited to rapists:
“To freeze, to falter in mental fortitude, or to be gaslit into overriding one’s creep alarm, is an opening. It’s obviously the worst thing you can do. It’s how you find yourself in a tub cuddle situation.”
“…overriding one’s creep alarm…” It’s almost like tolerance is not a virtue.
Excellent piece.
Responding to self-protection and discernment with retard blather about “empathy” is creep self-identification. Irritating in the moment, but there’s always value in knowing who is worthy of shunning and contempt.
It is in a woman’s evolutionary interest to be bad at spotting sexual predators
Women’s difficulty with saying “no” is hard for a man to fathom (I couldn’t understand why many abused wives stayed in the relationship, even returning to a violent husband), but the explanations here in the post and comments make sense: it’s hard-wired into their biology for survival reasons.
"Women are also wired to raise babies, so we are fine tuned for reception and interpretation of non-verbal queues." I wished this reality sunk in a bit more with people generally, but the world is so upside down it's been written off as a sexist trope.
Great breakdown of something obvious to everyone except the Gammas. Wikipedia did their level best to keep any mention of Gaiman's proclivities off the page, but finally there is a one word line that has yet to be removed:
"In 2024, four women accused Gaiman of sexual assault and abuse, with one accusation dating back to 1986."
This is probably the best way to distinguish gamma from low delta tbh. Gammas look for excuses to cross boundaries. If anything deltas tend to be a bit too overly concerned about making sure they aren’t doing that. The hover hand during a photo, ect.
No. Lower status guys can't get away with behaviour that's acceptable from a higher status guy. The hover hand keeps them out of trouble.
Yes, it reeks of lack of self confidence. But if you actually lack self confidence or are low status then the hand contact is going to be gross and creepy, a cheap grope rather than a flirtatious squeeze. It's all situational. Hover hand guys likely know they're lower status on some level. Confidence that isn't backed up by desirability is awful and creepy, off putting. If she doesn't want you to touch her the hover hand is better.
Well put. Empathy is not a female feature. The reason is clearly articulated: women often bear the burden of poor reproductive choices. This, in turn, means they become pragmatic in their approach and filtering gammatudes.
I finally understand several interactions that have occurred over the years with a number of male friends/acquaintances. I never really understand these guys and why they were the way they were, why they behaved the way they did toward me and why things went down so badly, but now that I can recognise that they were gammas, the puzzle pieces fit together perfectly. Holy cow. But now I can better recognise the pattern.
Ex #2, a little less complicated, but still icky:
When I was in my 20s I was really into the swing dancing scene in my city (east coast swing, lindy hop, &c). General etiquette with swing dancing is you typically dance with anybody, regardless of skill level. If a guy comes up to you and asks you to dance, you typically say yes unless you're really tired or whatever or have some other reason to not dance. Other etiquette includes not criticizing somebody's dancing while you're dancing with them, and if you want to talk with them while dancing just keep it too light general social talk. You also don't try dominating somebody, don't keep asking them to dance over and over again. Plus if somebody says no don't take a personally.
So one night I was outside dancing with friends and this guy asked me to dance and I said yes. He wasn't that great at dancing but I was doing my best to make a not great answer feel good about their dancing by doing my best to follow well. Hey however kept trying to correct me in my dancing. Buddy you're not a good dancer don't try to correct me. The reason I'm not dancing well is because you're not good at leading. This is why you don't try to criticize other people's dancing. Because sometimes you are the problem. So when you do this you look like a complete fool. But I'm a patient person and I'm a nice person. And I generally like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I was obviously new and had some etiquette to learn. So whatever. Not gonna learn if I don't give him opportunities, right?
Sometimes I'm too nice. Or naive.
A week later I was back and he was there again. I was taking a break and a friend of mine had been looking for a job and my company was hiring, so I was giving my friend info on that, and made sure he had my email so he could send me his resumé. This other guy was standing nearby, but I didn't think much of it. Of course I get the really weird awkward dance treatment from him, and he kept trying to dance with me more than normal, which just gets weird, so I had to feign tiredness.
But the next day I got to work, opened my email and what did I see? An email from him asking for more info on the job I was telling my friend about. Wtf, mate? I did not just hand out my email to everyone. He had been listening in/looking over our shoulders/I-have-no-idea enough to get my email address and spell it right (my name was an unconventional spelling).
I was so upset by that I didn't even know what to do.
The next time I showed up for a dance, he was there again, and I was there with my usual friend. When this guy had the nerve to ask me to dance, I just loudly said NO. I think this took him by surprise, but the next day he emailed me, telling me what a terrible person I was for refusing to dance with him, going on about how he had "danced in New York, LA, and all around the world" and I should be grateful to get to dance with him! When I forwarded that to my dance friend, he felt bad for not stepping in the night before when he saw the guy heading toward me.
The whole thing felt so bizarre. He was so creepy and it made me feel so icky.
It's really embarrassing when I look back that I didn't see it all along, but I was young and naive. Sorry for the essay:
One example that stands out was a guy I knew in college, a fellow music student. He was married, a fellow Christian, in the same department as me (I majored in composition), and we got along well. I felt safe with him, you know, like because of his position in life, we could hang out and stuff and I didn't I feel like there was any risk of impropriety, like I was more of a sister to him if you know what I mean. At that age I was always completely blind to anybody who might have been flirting with me because I tended to view myself not particularly attractive (looking back I actually was, haha, but life is funny).
This guy and I would eat lunch together, sometimes go for long drives just talking about life, theology, philosophy, geeky music stuff, and he had some marital issues so I'd give him advice on how to improve his marriage because even though I didn't have personal experience in romantic relationships, I do know what women like because I'm a woman. He was also 10 years older than me and at my age (21, I think?) it was a pretty big gap.
After a while he just started ignoring me, which was weird like he just wasn't friends with me anymore and I was like okay whatever. And then after a few months he came back to me and was like "oh my wife told me I couldn't be friends with you anymore because she said I was having any emotional affair with you." (RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG) I laughed the whole thing off and was like, "are you kidding me that's insane." To be fair to him, and I hate to say it, his wife really was kind of bitchy. She definitely contributed to their marital problems.
That summer I was home and he was still in our university town and I started getting these really sappy emails from him. Like creepy sappy. He also started attending my church which felt very intrusive in a way. I can't really quite explain why it felt that way but it just did, even though I was gone all summer. But these emails were like, basically love notes about how he wish he could bring me flowers and expressing his undying love for me and whatnot. And I was just like "how and when did I ever give the impression that saying these things to me was ever okay?"
I ended up forwarding the emails to my pastor who was a very close friend and mentor and just said I don't even know what to do about this because he's now at our church which is supposed to feel like a safe space but now I don't feel safe anymore. But I can't just be like you have to leave our church because church is for anyone, you know?
It's been over 20 years since then and I can't remember how it all ended up but I think my pastor had a talk with him about how inappropriate his behavior was, But the whole thing just made me feel so gross. I was so close to emailing his wife/ex-wife (who I also had to see not infrequently in the music department) and apologizing to her for laughing off her suspicions. Except that she had totally vilified me unfairly so I still don't like her for that. But I'm glad for her that she kicked him to the curb.
However that wasn't the end because I still had to see him most days in the music department. And I'm a forgiving kind of person or at least a let's put this behind us because we are still going to have to work together professionally kind of person.
Senior year I had to organize my own senior recital for my composition works. From a professional standpoint it made sense to join forces and extend an invitation to this same fellow to do a joint senior recital with him. He was grateful for this because it would have made things easier for both of us to do. However he couldn't seem to get his shit together and I was getting frustrated so I finally told him to get his shit together or I was going to do my senior recital alone.
He tried manipulating me by telling me that his composition professor said that I was being a bad person and that I had to let him do the recital with me or else I'd be in trouble or something like that. I'm not one to really put up with garbage like that, So I talked with my own composition professor who was head of the department and then I went to his professor and asked him if that's what he said and he said that that was a load of bullshit, said that I was absolutely doing the right thing by booting him from my recital, especially after trying to use a professor and a bunch of lies to manipulate me. It was such bad behavior that I was just done trusting that dude for anything ever again.
That following summer after graduation he "fell in love" with yet another person at my church in another completely inappropriate way. I felt bad for not warning her or any other people, but she has a strong personality and handled it fine.
Yeah. Like, I'm not sure why he joined my church unless it was because he couldn't go to his former church because of separating from his wife and my church seemed like a good option. But there were tonnes of other churches he could have joined instead.
But the whole thing, I was so naive at the time.
I mean, I still have some really great platonic relationships with men now (and my husband does with women), but I'm not blind to the creepy guys anymore. Thank goodness.
I've experienced this strange inability to say "no" before when I was trying to consciously work on my pick-up game.
I'd just gotten a crap food service job but figured I'd make the best out of it by asking the cutest girl on the line for a date to inure myself to rejection (she was quite a bit younger and way out of my league though we had a good rapport)
To my shock she said yes and we exchanged numbers and made plans to go to a movie. I was quite surprised to see her on the next shift with a diamond engagement ring! She explained that my approach was so unexpected she didn't know what to say and we had a good laugh. I had to convince her there were no hard feelings because the poor girl genuinely felt bad about it lol. Since then I've been going for the low-hanging fruit.
That's a well articulated position.
For a woman to have a creepometer, she has had to have experiences with creeps.
As a young girl watching Mr. Collins on screen with Elizabeth Bennet, I did not understand the manipulation he was exhibiting and I even considered Elizabeth to have been too hard on this retarded, awkward creature. He read as an immature child to me, who never admits to loving her and is just getting married because he was told to.
Today, after many real life experiences with creeps/Gammas, I relish her response. It's a response of a woman who in one scene learns that he's not listening to her answer of "no". And whether he's immature, has mental deficiency, or is a master manipulator creep makes no difference. "You couldn't make me happy" she says
She and I and many women do not want to be in the presence of, much less in relationship with a man who manipulates our "no" into "yes". CREEP is too nice a term for the EVIL that it is in practical experience.
It can be similar with us men. When I was younger, I used to think Mr. Collins as a bit of a dork but basically harmless. But the last time I saw P&P it hit me like a ton of bricks how loathsome he truly was... as in, Uriah Heep or Grima Wormtongue tier.
Thank you. As a 23 year old with autism who has had a few scary and dangerous physical incidents with gammas, (sexual assaults) I really appreciate the affirmation that I am not evil for listening to my instincts, despite my gamma of a father's pressure to date people like him.
Unfortunately, your father being a Gamma he's probably never going to stop trying to sabotage you - I know this from personal experience. You're likely better off if you stop listening to his opinions on anything, if you haven't done so already.
Thanks. Maybe I should stop listening to him.
My mom was a skinny, fit, blonde with a small chest but a nice hour-glass shape. So, she's not a ten, but assuming she wasn't a total b**** at the time, she probably could have held out for a bravo or at least a delta. They got married when she was 19. I'd say she didn't have high enough standards. Her dad was an abusive alcoholic, she was molested as a child by someone the family knew and didn't tell anyone, and she sadly fits the bill for just repeating the cycle of abuse. She was still loving with her parents and probably just wanted out of their house. She also had very few if any friends. She told me the other girls in high school weren't nice to her. I honestly don't know how my dad got her either, but I'm guessing he just got really lucky. Must have been an act of God or something. Or, my mom was a totally different person back then. I do know that she always wanted kids and that her doctor said she had to do it young because she had some tumors cut out of her ovaries in high school. That may have created some desperation on her part.
It sounds like she had similar problems to you and me: pretty, but socially impaired, which brings down our rank.
“Don’t trust your instincts or natural reactions” is a message that is pushed across the board, not just in male-female encounters: health particularly, medicine, education and learning, food, politics, etc. “Listen to the experts! Trust the science!!” But not your own autonomous self. Because people who do are less susceptible to ideological indoctrination.
Trust the Science. The Science changed. We say that is its nature. We cannot be accountable for your damage. Also, the Experts go through revolving doors in and out of connected academia, government, firms, consulting, and if successful the board of directors of a connected firm.
"If you duck and flee instead, you are in for the long game, like Tori Amos. Some day, life will knock you down and the gamma will be there to try to take advantage."
Yes, indeed. Also, if you go for the nuclear rejection after the long game has been well established the gamma will feel betrayed, that you were lying to him and leading him on. And now you've got the gamma's unhinged emotional dysregulation to deal with, and you have no idea just how far that unhinged emotion will take him. Yes, you may only have to deal with a bigger flounce, but you may also now have a stalker and potential murderer on your hands.
Instant rejection is by far the safest option.
Never underestimate a rejected gamma violence potential. One daughter had a boyfriend. A gamma coworker, ~10 years older he decided she was the ‘ONE’. Asked her out, rejected, yet saw her with her boyfriend at common gatherings. Her boyfriends vehicle was vandalized. Then my daughters truck (my truck) was vandalized at her apt. Twice. Police reports taken. In a family meeting wife and I were finally updated on the situation, as I was dealing with my truck damage ($ thousands) and we figured out he was the most likely culprit. Wife was very non confrontational, he’ll get it out of his system. Later the gamma actually came to our home and asked to speak to us. How he knew where we lived was very disturbing, especially as I was away on a consulting job. Wife wisely refused him entry but did talk to him in the front patio. Couple hours later she called me. Without going into specifics; he is articulate, apparently educated and intelligent yet seriously disturbed. Found out later he had a degree in Social Justice.
Daughter moved back home, security (former police officers) at her work became involved, walked her to the truck after her shift, HR was at her work was useless (can’t we all just get along, major denial, never took it seriously.) She received pages to attend patients in location where the hospital was under renovation, no patients there. Truck was damaged in her work parking lot. Took to having her drive other family vehicles to hide the truck. Couldn’t get charges filed or a PO issued; no witnesses, no evidence, no case. Finally he attacked the truck in our driveway and was caught by the covert night vision cameras I installed. Finally arrested. Due to the arrest daughter was able to obtain a PO, which he immediately violated.
Detective laid out case; multiple felonies yet given the more serious cases the county deals with he’ll get a plea offer down to nothing. However, if we pursue the serious misdemeanor charges, the city prosecutor will go for trial, no plea. I understood the system. Took the City route. He had to pay for his attorney cost (or rather mommy and daddy did) Went to trial, no plea offered. Found guilty. His attorney was extremely upset at his being sentenced to 3 years Probation for the offense: 3 years plus reimbursement of the damage to the truck. While I wanted his worthless ass in prison, an old cop advised me don’t seek prison time. He’s a vindictive loser and will meet other vindictive losers in prison. They exchange favors, someone with zero connection to us will extract revenge on us, meanwhile when he gets out he’ll have to extract revenge on some other stranger to pay off his ‘debt’. As a loner loser, without those connections he can’t do anything. Thus the probation was acceptable.
So, he lost his job, nursing license, home and moved back with his parents.
Since then recently got a DUI with jail time and other assorted police and court actions.
Gammas never learn.
That's horrifying. I hope the jail time for an unrelated issue focuses his attention elsewhere, so your daughter can move on with her life without being in constant worry.
It was extremely hard listening to our daughter cry in the shower. She didn’t want to show her fear. As soon as she turned 21 she got her CCW. Bought her whatever she needed. The three years of probation did allow him to focus elsewhere. But gamma gonna gamma. Over 10 years later he is still at home (in his 40s.) Fortunately records, indicate he did get a ‘wife’ although pubic court records don’t indicate a marriage and our state isn’t a common law state. Lots of court and PD issues. When dealing with gamma nut cases keep them far, far away and be aware of what they are up to. Paid a PI to keep track of what he was up to. Money well spent. He was recently stopped near daughters work location. He was sleeping in a car. His caregivers (parents?) told PD he was under a lot of stress and having life issues and alcohol issues. They came and took him home (over 95 miles away) I still carry. Everywhere. Daughter moved on, married, kids, career, the gamma is in the past, only this dad keeps his ears on the ground and head on a swivel. This old dad keeps his eyes on the threats. They are out there.
I admire your vigilance, you're such a good dad!
Thank you. As any parent can tell you, just because they grow up and move on doesn’t mean you stop being their parent and watching out for them. Now I have grandkids to help protect. Even more important in todays clown world.
This reminds again that woman and men walk through the world differently. I was initially mad about the man or bear example until someone here explained about the prison experiment. Normal guys experience what woman go through when they are in prison. Being on guard all the time and constantly worried. Woman feel this way walking through a world of gammas and predators. And at least the predators are up front about it. The gamma trying to wear a girl down must be intolerable.
I've definitely had my creep alarm set off before, by a man at church. The man seemed high-status, popular, and was friendly. Maybe too friendly. He'd always greet me by name, and it seemed a bit strange for an older married man to greet a married woman that way.
I found myself wondering if he were a pedophile.
"What?!?" I rebuked myself. "How did you get to pedophile from him being friendly? Everyone else likes and trusts him!" I was a pleaser and in the habit of ignoring my gut in matters like this.
Well, a couple years later, it came out: he was a pedophile. (Only one victim as far as anyone knows.) And also he'd been abusive to his wife the entire time. He was promptly excommunicated and went to jail. I learned never to ignore my creep alarm again.
Impressive that your gut feelings connected the dots so well.
I was impressed, too! 😂
This is very enlightening. It's hard as a male to see things this way but it makes total sense. I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions for fathers to help their sons avoid becoming gammas.
Martial arts, team sports, extended wilderness camping, spending time around strong masculine male role models (e.g. father, grandfathers, uncles, etc.).
I know a man who, in his youth, was on track to becoming a Gamma. He says he was a compulsive liar. His dad tried everything to knock it out of him, warning him that liars go to hell. But even that did not move him. Then God stepped in and radically changed him with the Gospel. He immediately gave up lying and became excited to go to church and live for the Lord. He became a solid Delta, and now is a very good situational Alpha as pastor of our church. The best thing we can do is pray that God will lead our sons' hearts.
Vox has said that your influence as a parent is not as great as you imagine it to be. But perhaps never allowing your (possibly-Gamma) son to be dishonest with others or himself, and calling him out on it? Since dishonesty is one of the chief Gamma traits. Also if you can get him to play a team sport of some kind where he will learn to be part of a group of boys and learn his place and his role.
I think so as well, concerning both points.
I think parents must play a pretty important role if they are heavily involved, but maybe less if they are not heavily involved.
That being said, honesty is something I require of my sons as well, including not sugar-coating or misconstruing things.
The respect and love that the child has for the parent will be some of the biggest determiners of the influence the parent has on them.
Fantastic email/post, very well explained. Frankly, it confirms the righteousness of the fatherly instinct to beat the ever-loving tar out of the Gamma who is orbiting a daughter (although it also shows me I need to do a better job training these girls to verbally beat the tar out of them on their own).
Doesn't hurt for the girls to learn some in-close techniques, either. Hopefully it never comes to that, but with these types of guys sometimes even a little fight is enough to put them off. More to the point, the right instructors will help your girls to develop the kind of body language and awareness that deters predators before anything even starts; if she carries herself with confident alertness, she reads less like prey. I'm pretty sure my predators picked me in part because they mistook my quietness for timidity.
Yes! I froze once at fifteen at a summer camp, and the guy got some of my clothes off and I had to hit him to get him to stop touching me before I could say, "No, I was serious. I don't want to have sex," for like the millionth time.
The freeze is absolutely terrifying; everything in your brain is screaming at you to get out of there, and your body might as well be paralyzed for all that you can do. Even if it's only for a moment, it feels like an eternity. Good for you for fighting back, and thank goodness you were able to get out of there!
Thank you. And, yes, thank God. My guardian angel was working overtime that day
Solid piece, with a Money Quote. Not just with gammas, nor limited to rapists:
“To freeze, to falter in mental fortitude, or to be gaslit into overriding one’s creep alarm, is an opening. It’s obviously the worst thing you can do. It’s how you find yourself in a tub cuddle situation.”
“…overriding one’s creep alarm…” It’s almost like tolerance is not a virtue.
Thank you for writing this. I found it useful.