The class/caste criteria are changing with the socio-culture as increasing numbers neither work nor are upper or a subclass. I’d expect rigid caste numbers to be fewer than 20th-century Western classes. Probably closer to India’s four + U than nine.
Clowns want a stagnant hard caste system, where Gammas may easily take a position at the top with inheritance. Sam Altman being a key figure is a great example of the outsized responsibility, though I do now know how he obtained his position.
The decline of the Clown World dictates the opposite, Gammas quickly decline in caste as Alphas climb the ranks.
Money is irrelevant. Spending years poor with roots in high class will pay off later. There are advantages of being different, ontologically.
The 3 generation of wealth story feels good, and it is mostly not the case with the upper class.
Money and [employment] status can go up and down, and knowing how to make money, the right attitude towards it, and capital assets in the family are huge.
"and knowing how to make money, the right attitude towards it, and capital assets in the family are huge."
Underlying the money stuff is genetic and social capital. Having good stock, social skills through upbringing, and the diplomatic skills to form ventures/build organizations. A lot of passive/engrained status bonuses when born to the upper class.
Somewhere around upper-middle-class to middle-class for the US.
They are paid well relative to society, but are dependent on the system for status. Threats to the system will trigger them to fanatically defend it. That insecurity makes them more middle class than upper class.
The top level of heritage military/state officers are upper class. Even if the system collapses, they are elites and will build a new system or claim a spot in the replacement. That independence from the system marks them as upper class. They might still defend the system, but their status does not depend on it.
EDIT: Claim a spot reserved for them, not earn it. Upper class doesn't strive for things, they get it because they deserve it.
Military dependents had a caste/class system. Post WW2 thru end of draft era: Enlisted kids associated among themselves or possibly lower NCOs kids. NCO kids could associate across all levels. Officers kids associated with Officers kids but could associate with NCO kids, never enlisted kids. Dating was the same. Don’t know current dependent caste system.
"Just to use a fairly recondite example, I don’t even notice or look at cars that don’t have at least 500hp when I’m driving, because my fun car puts down 4 digits of power."
Gen Z - "But how many digits will it put out after we light it on fire while you're sleeping in your vacation home?"
I am not being facetious. I'm being a contrarian. To me, one of the perqs of travel -- I know, "boomer who loves to travel" -- I am walking, typing cliche -- is that you get to meet and interact with people outside your walled-in social niche. I am aware that people in foreign countries who work in the service and hospitality industry, who speak close-enough-to-flawless English, are not a random cross-section of their respective countries. But it's better than sitting at home, staying in my lane of life.
"is that you get to meet and interact with people outside your walled-in social niche."
You may be bored with the people you normally interact with, but those are still the people you normally interact with. Who are like you by your own judgement.
You might talk down your status quo on the Internet, but you observably practice what Vox is writing about and you continue to choose your status quo, minus the occasional vacation.
You know that "sitting at home" and "traveling to meet those who are not a random cross-section of their respective countries" are not the only two options, right?
"I mean, I have all this extra time and money. What else am I supposed to do with it, except spend it on myself to rid this pesky mundanity?"
Idk. Maybe ask God if there's anyone around you who could use some help.
I promise it'll be more fulfilling than your vacations.
Honest response forthcoming. My job is literally (literally "literally," not figuratively literally) helping people who've lost their livelihoods and trying to get them back on track with some sense of justice and dignity. After doing it for a few decades, it can leave me feeling burned out. Traveling and learning about the places I'm visiting is the best means I've found for recovering from that burnout. That and mid-market bourbon. But only in moderation. And that applies both to the travel and the bourbon consumption.
haha fair enough. Everybody needs a break sometimes, especially those in jobs like yours (and mine...literally literally...) Sounds like you found your preferred type of break. Well played.
I'm halfway through that book. The amazing thing I found was how much of what people believe is correct comes from their class and isn't shared with the upper and lower classes. Breaking free of those beliefs is a necessary step to move your family up from the middle to upper class.
There's also that money will not necessarily grant acceptance into a higher class if the higher class does not accept them. They are their own class with their own behaviors and beliefs. A lot of times they simply won't. It's just how it is. Money alone is not class.
It does talk about beliefs, but it's mostly descriptive.
For instance, it's about details of how the classes do it 'right'. Men's sports and the size of the ball. The smaller the ball is, the higher the class is. Tennis and golf are higher than football.
Take an example of a middle class belief, that people should earn their own way. Recognize that neither the upper or lower classes believe such a thing, as the lower class runs off benefits and the upper class runs off inheritance. You abandon the middle class understanding, adopting the upper in it's place, which then demands that you completely reorganize your life and plans financially as you stop working for your own consumption and retirement and instead work to build inheritance for future generations.
This article reminds me of two clients I have that most would consider wealthy.
Client 1: Ceo of a company almost anyone in the US would recognize. He's obviously from a working class background but has climbed to the point of making a seven digit income. He still spends his time and money on pursuits any average working guy would, just bigger scale and more expensive versions.
Client 2: Old money, very kind and philanthropic lady. Dresses very plain drives an 18 year old station wagon. All cash no flash.
Spends her time/money on hosting large internationally reconized equestrian events, construction/rennovarion projects on her multiple properties, fruit and nut tree orchards, both children attended Ivy league universities.
Anyone who is paying any attention at all would not class these two in the same category at all. People just know who you are given enough time.
It doesn't appear to me that class, much like ssh positions shifts very much at all in ones lifetime.
This is consistent with my personal observation. Raised in a working/lower-middle class neighborhood on the southside of Chicago I was always much more successful with women of my own, or lower, economic class than with women from the wealthier northside and northwestern suburbs. Women on the lower side of the economic range are simply more reality based in their assessment of men. They have to be. My advice, for what it's worth, is go down range.
I remember when I first met my now wife at a friend's house. I found out she attended school in the wealthiest zip code in the state and wondered how long it could last. Turns out her dad was a diesel mechanic and mom owned a small barber shop. Class ended up being a non factor.
I grew up lower end of working-class and still carry many of mindsets I had gowing up even though I live a more prosperous life and really don't a associate with anyone I grew up with anymore. One child tends to lean more towards middle class in behavior and friend circles, the other more towards middle working class.
Only right wing/conservative intellectuals could screw up the meaning of the book "Bell Curve." Me a layman read it and thought to myself assortative mating even if I did not know the exact term. But the leftists threw out the usual rhetoric of "ists", "isms" and "phobias" over that work and the intellectuals failed again.
Thomas Sowell didn't criticize it. Nor did Joseph Sobran, Pat Buchanan, or pretty much everyone else who was "read out" of conservatism by William Buckley or others at the National Review.
Sowell's response at the time, much to the dismay of black America, could be summed up with, "Well, duh!"
Anybody who's ever walked thru a southern WalMart at 10pm on a Sat night knows the feeling. You see another normal white person, your eyes meet with a relieved understanding of caste.
My wife only “used” her (pre-1900-university) doctorate for a few years professionally, but it was a very reliable signal for personal standards, standards of childrearing, intellectual level, etc, so it did what it needed to do.
Fussell's book is good. One anecdote I remember from it was about the televised Kennedy/Nixon debate of 1960 which is popularly believed to have swayed the election to the more telegenic Kennedy. According to Fussell, when the candidates arrived in the studio, Kennedy took one look at the vice president, turned to his staff and whispered, "The guy's got no class!"
Also, Fussell winds up arguing that there's a class of people who transcend the whole American system, I think he calls them 'X' people who are too cosmopolitan to buy into it as a thoroughgoing explanation of character--and of course classes himself in that class, somewhat like a precursor to the sigma designation in the SSH.
I welcome European Whites in America being a little more selective.
The class/caste criteria are changing with the socio-culture as increasing numbers neither work nor are upper or a subclass. I’d expect rigid caste numbers to be fewer than 20th-century Western classes. Probably closer to India’s four + U than nine.
AQ
Clowns want a stagnant hard caste system, where Gammas may easily take a position at the top with inheritance. Sam Altman being a key figure is a great example of the outsized responsibility, though I do now know how he obtained his position.
The decline of the Clown World dictates the opposite, Gammas quickly decline in caste as Alphas climb the ranks.
Very true. It is even more apparent with my high school aged kids. They gravitate to similar tastes and tastes.
We live in a small town, so kids are exposed to all classes. But their friends are mostly the same level we are
Class is mostly fixed and travels with you.
Money is irrelevant. Spending years poor with roots in high class will pay off later. There are advantages of being different, ontologically.
The 3 generation of wealth story feels good, and it is mostly not the case with the upper class.
Money and [employment] status can go up and down, and knowing how to make money, the right attitude towards it, and capital assets in the family are huge.
"and knowing how to make money, the right attitude towards it, and capital assets in the family are huge."
Underlying the money stuff is genetic and social capital. Having good stock, social skills through upbringing, and the diplomatic skills to form ventures/build organizations. A lot of passive/engrained status bonuses when born to the upper class.
I’m curious, what class would Federal Agents, Military Officers and or State Officers be considered?
Somewhere around upper-middle-class to middle-class for the US.
They are paid well relative to society, but are dependent on the system for status. Threats to the system will trigger them to fanatically defend it. That insecurity makes them more middle class than upper class.
The top level of heritage military/state officers are upper class. Even if the system collapses, they are elites and will build a new system or claim a spot in the replacement. That independence from the system marks them as upper class. They might still defend the system, but their status does not depend on it.
EDIT: Claim a spot reserved for them, not earn it. Upper class doesn't strive for things, they get it because they deserve it.
Military dependents had a caste/class system. Post WW2 thru end of draft era: Enlisted kids associated among themselves or possibly lower NCOs kids. NCO kids could associate across all levels. Officers kids associated with Officers kids but could associate with NCO kids, never enlisted kids. Dating was the same. Don’t know current dependent caste system.
"Just to use a fairly recondite example, I don’t even notice or look at cars that don’t have at least 500hp when I’m driving, because my fun car puts down 4 digits of power."
Gen Z - "But how many digits will it put out after we light it on fire while you're sleeping in your vacation home?"
People like me bore me.
I am not being facetious. I'm being a contrarian. To me, one of the perqs of travel -- I know, "boomer who loves to travel" -- I am walking, typing cliche -- is that you get to meet and interact with people outside your walled-in social niche. I am aware that people in foreign countries who work in the service and hospitality industry, who speak close-enough-to-flawless English, are not a random cross-section of their respective countries. But it's better than sitting at home, staying in my lane of life.
"is that you get to meet and interact with people outside your walled-in social niche."
You may be bored with the people you normally interact with, but those are still the people you normally interact with. Who are like you by your own judgement.
You might talk down your status quo on the Internet, but you observably practice what Vox is writing about and you continue to choose your status quo, minus the occasional vacation.
You know that "sitting at home" and "traveling to meet those who are not a random cross-section of their respective countries" are not the only two options, right?
"I mean, I have all this extra time and money. What else am I supposed to do with it, except spend it on myself to rid this pesky mundanity?"
Idk. Maybe ask God if there's anyone around you who could use some help.
I promise it'll be more fulfilling than your vacations.
Cheers.
Honest response forthcoming. My job is literally (literally "literally," not figuratively literally) helping people who've lost their livelihoods and trying to get them back on track with some sense of justice and dignity. After doing it for a few decades, it can leave me feeling burned out. Traveling and learning about the places I'm visiting is the best means I've found for recovering from that burnout. That and mid-market bourbon. But only in moderation. And that applies both to the travel and the bourbon consumption.
haha fair enough. Everybody needs a break sometimes, especially those in jobs like yours (and mine...literally literally...) Sounds like you found your preferred type of break. Well played.
Sitting at home, staying in your lane of life is underrated.
Ok, boomer.
Uncalled for in this case.
The man is honest, and NOT lecturing you to use strategems that lost their usefulness decades ago.
I am what I am.
I'm halfway through that book. The amazing thing I found was how much of what people believe is correct comes from their class and isn't shared with the upper and lower classes. Breaking free of those beliefs is a necessary step to move your family up from the middle to upper class.
There's also that money will not necessarily grant acceptance into a higher class if the higher class does not accept them. They are their own class with their own behaviors and beliefs. A lot of times they simply won't. It's just how it is. Money alone is not class.
How can I learn to break free of those beliefs? Does the book talk about what the beliefs are?
It does talk about beliefs, but it's mostly descriptive.
For instance, it's about details of how the classes do it 'right'. Men's sports and the size of the ball. The smaller the ball is, the higher the class is. Tennis and golf are higher than football.
Do you really want to?
Apparently both tolerance of and participation in both incest and pedophilia are is quite popular outside of the middle class.
Take an example of a middle class belief, that people should earn their own way. Recognize that neither the upper or lower classes believe such a thing, as the lower class runs off benefits and the upper class runs off inheritance. You abandon the middle class understanding, adopting the upper in it's place, which then demands that you completely reorganize your life and plans financially as you stop working for your own consumption and retirement and instead work to build inheritance for future generations.
I believe money is mostly orthogonal to what she's asking about.
This article reminds me of two clients I have that most would consider wealthy.
Client 1: Ceo of a company almost anyone in the US would recognize. He's obviously from a working class background but has climbed to the point of making a seven digit income. He still spends his time and money on pursuits any average working guy would, just bigger scale and more expensive versions.
Client 2: Old money, very kind and philanthropic lady. Dresses very plain drives an 18 year old station wagon. All cash no flash.
Spends her time/money on hosting large internationally reconized equestrian events, construction/rennovarion projects on her multiple properties, fruit and nut tree orchards, both children attended Ivy league universities.
Anyone who is paying any attention at all would not class these two in the same category at all. People just know who you are given enough time.
It doesn't appear to me that class, much like ssh positions shifts very much at all in ones lifetime.
Is client 2 single?
Married since the mid seventies.
Ok, I'll check that off as a non-option.
This is consistent with my personal observation. Raised in a working/lower-middle class neighborhood on the southside of Chicago I was always much more successful with women of my own, or lower, economic class than with women from the wealthier northside and northwestern suburbs. Women on the lower side of the economic range are simply more reality based in their assessment of men. They have to be. My advice, for what it's worth, is go down range.
I remember when I first met my now wife at a friend's house. I found out she attended school in the wealthiest zip code in the state and wondered how long it could last. Turns out her dad was a diesel mechanic and mom owned a small barber shop. Class ended up being a non factor.
We made it, 27 years married.
In which class do you belong, and in which class did your children end up?
I grew up lower end of working-class and still carry many of mindsets I had gowing up even though I live a more prosperous life and really don't a associate with anyone I grew up with anymore. One child tends to lean more towards middle class in behavior and friend circles, the other more towards middle working class.
Only right wing/conservative intellectuals could screw up the meaning of the book "Bell Curve." Me a layman read it and thought to myself assortative mating even if I did not know the exact term. But the leftists threw out the usual rhetoric of "ists", "isms" and "phobias" over that work and the intellectuals failed again.
Thomas Sowell didn't criticize it. Nor did Joseph Sobran, Pat Buchanan, or pretty much everyone else who was "read out" of conservatism by William Buckley or others at the National Review.
Sowell's response at the time, much to the dismay of black America, could be summed up with, "Well, duh!"
Anybody who's ever walked thru a southern WalMart at 10pm on a Sat night knows the feeling. You see another normal white person, your eyes meet with a relieved understanding of caste.
As a non-american, can you explain it to me? I am curious.
Imagine the Congo...
🤣
That’s living dangerously
I sometimes feel like the large male version of Jane Goodall...
Well said. I live in a southern city and understand that completely.
My wife only “used” her (pre-1900-university) doctorate for a few years professionally, but it was a very reliable signal for personal standards, standards of childrearing, intellectual level, etc, so it did what it needed to do.
Fussell's book is good. One anecdote I remember from it was about the televised Kennedy/Nixon debate of 1960 which is popularly believed to have swayed the election to the more telegenic Kennedy. According to Fussell, when the candidates arrived in the studio, Kennedy took one look at the vice president, turned to his staff and whispered, "The guy's got no class!"
Also, Fussell winds up arguing that there's a class of people who transcend the whole American system, I think he calls them 'X' people who are too cosmopolitan to buy into it as a thoroughgoing explanation of character--and of course classes himself in that class, somewhat like a precursor to the sigma designation in the SSH.
Class X are a predecessor to the bohemian bourgeois as described in the 2000 book "Bobos in Paradise".